Tale of Emet [FF14 x Nier Reincarnation event story]

[DreadCrow]

And ya know what? I don't blame him for his prejudice and contempt. There is a massive difference between real life bigotry [Which I stand against with every fiber of my being] and something in a video game where the man was legitimately correct when the prejudice began for him. He can see souls and could see these people were lesser than his own, and at the end of the day just wanted his friends back, something which even Alisae says she'd like as not do the same.

There is also the fact that they existed at the expense of his friends and loved ones. You can't tell me you wouldn't feel the same way in his shoes.

The only think he was correct on is that Sundered souls have lower aetheric density. But the story also tells that really doesn't mean all that much... From Thordan more or less outplaying Lahabrea and effectively devouring his essence, to use defeating two other Unsundered Ascions and preventing the End of Days themselves... Something the Ancients couldn't even do..? I think the narrative pretty clearly states that his take is wrong. Alisae saying she'd do the same is also far less a commendation of what he was doing and more admittance to her own moral failings.

And while I can't say for certain I wouldn't do what he did, I can say that having lost people in my life, I wouldn't even take the life of a single person to bring them back, let alone fourteen.

"My mass murderer didn't kill as many people as your mass murderer!"

We've truly reached ascended levels of conversation.

If you took my take as justifying Venat's actions, that's certainly not the intent. I think what she did was wrong and if the game gave us another option, I'd surely have taken it. But killing one person, to literally prevent all life form ending, as opposed to killing fourteen people to bring that one back? Yeah, option one is probably the more ethical.

Correct, throwing around terms like "racial supremacist", whilst ignoring the fact that the sundered are the result of slicing and dicing his people for a utilitarian purpose (the effects of which are apparently denied as and when suits a narrative), which he was left completely in the dark about, and who now exist at the expense of his people, is more than a little strange, in my eyes.

What would you call a person who thinks "his people" are superior and more worthy of life, by their very nature?

[Rulakir]

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised the same person who couldn't see the Ancients held funerals before the WoL also can't see the difference between Venat's "flashback" and every other account we have of the sundering.

But killing one person, to literally prevent all life form ending, as opposed to killing fourteen people to bring that one back? Yeah, option one is probably the more ethical.

You're assuming one person needed to be killed at all and they did not. Venat was driven by her beliefs/fears, not objective truth.

[Iscah]

You're assuming one person needed to be killed at all and they did not. Venat was driven by her beliefs/fears, not objective truth.

On the other hand, given that the first person did already die, the ethics of whether it should have happened are irrelevant to Emet's part of the dilemma, which is whether killing fourteen beings to restore one person to life is acceptable.

Suddenly, Shadow of the Colossus flashbacks – there's even a sundered god of darkness to be revived...

[EaraGrace]

You're assuming one person needed to be killed at all and they did not. Venat was driven by her beliefs/fears, not objective truth.

Not true in the slightest, however horrifying it might have been it is undeniable that the Sundering was integral to defeating Meteion and alternatives did not exist.

Sorry I recognize this was some few pages ago but what? Emet-selch did not just judge the Sundered based on their nebulous 'aetheric density.' That wasn't anywhere close to the crux of his argument. If you looked at his character, especially at the end of 5.0, and concluded that he was just a fantasy racist, I feel like that's missing the mark by a mile. Emet-selch judged people for their vices; war, hatred and disease, all things that, if not caused by their frailer bodies, were caused by their inclination towards violence. The society he lived through had none of these terrible, terrible things and he was one of the few people to watch this transition firsthand. Endwalker aside, what makes him compelling as an antagonist was that his bias had a genuine point behind it. Of course, deep down he was using it to justify atrocities, and that is what makes him a villain, but trying to spin the idea that the Sundered aren't incredibly different is taking it too far.

He called the people fo the first half-men and tried to convince us to betray as he watched them come together to save the world. In the collab he repeatedly remarks how they viscerally disgust him even as they improve. The idea that the Ancients were without vice is buying into to their worldview and is not objectively shown.

[KariTheFox]

And ya know what? I don't blame him for his prejudice and contempt. There is a massive difference between real life bigotry [Which I stand against with every fiber of my being] and something in a video game where the man was legitimately correct when the prejudice began for him. He can see souls and could see these people were lesser than his own, and at the end of the day just wanted his friends back, something which even Alisae says she'd like as not do the same.

Emet-Selch is absolutely not "legitmately correct" about sundered people being "lesser" in some way. He is judging them on a completely arbitrary standard 'aetheric density' and dismissing them because they do not have sufficently dense souls, despite clearly being actual people. The only difference between this and real life bigotry is that aetheric density of souls is a made up fantasy concept.

And sure, he wants his friends back. Maybe I would do the same in his position, but I'm not going to be suprised when some people object to all the death I'm causing for the sake of my friends, and kill me for being the genocidal megalomaniac that I am.

Heck, even Emet-Selch accepts his L and takes it in stride, it's one of the reasons I actually quite like him. (And it's actually funny I get lumped in with "Venat lovers who hate Emet-Selch" so much. If you forced me to do a character ranking, I'd put Emet-Selch above her.)

[SpectrePhantasia]

Emet-Selch is absolutely not "legitmately correct" about sundered people being "lesser" in some way. He is judging them on a completely arbitrary standard 'aetheric density' and dismissing them because they do not have sufficently dense souls, despite clearly being actual people. The only difference between this and real life bigotry is that aetheric density of souls is a made up fantasy concept.

Sorry I recognize this was some few pages ago but what? Emet-selch did not just judge the Sundered based on their nebulous 'aetheric density.' That wasn't anywhere close to the crux of his argument. If you looked at his character, especially at the end of 5.0, and concluded that he was just a fantasy racist, I feel like that's missing the mark by a mile. Emet-selch judged people for their vices; war, hatred and disease, all things that, if not caused by their frailer bodies, were caused by their inclination towards violence. The society he lived through had none of these terrible, terrible things and he was one of the few people to watch this transition firsthand. Endwalker aside, what makes him compelling as an antagonist was that his bias had a genuine point behind it. Of course, deep down he was using it to justify atrocities, and that is what makes him a villain, but trying to spin the idea that the Sundered aren't incredibly different is taking it too far.

[Iscah]

Can we please not make this "Who Was Worse" episode 73, accept both sides did some awful things and focus on the question of whether he is accurately describing the bad thing that happened?

[SpectrePhantasia]

Alright, I'll bite. As someone who's an avid Nier fan and was playing Reincarnation well before this event was unveiled, the narrator of Mama does have a tendency to describe things as the character in focus sees them. As I see it, she's relaying information as if she's telling a story to the protagonist. However, I would agree with the idea that certainly not all of what is said in the text is reflective of how Emet would describe it. I'm afraid that landing on a square answer of what is objective and what is not is pretty much impossible, as the narrator is a very clear 3rd party that is equal parts describing surroundings as she is reading into the character's feelings.

[Lauront]

Alright, I'll bite. As someone who's an avid Nier fan and was playing Reincarnation well before this event was unveiled, the narrator of Mama does have a tendency to describe things as the character in focus sees them. As I see it, she's relaying information as if she's telling a story to the protagonist. However, I would agree with the idea that certainly not all of what is said in the text is reflective of how Emet would describe it. I'm afraid that landing on a square answer of what is objective and what is not is pretty much impossible, as the narrator is a very clear 3rd party that is equal parts describing surroundings as she is reading into the character's feelings.

All the more reason why this stuff should've been shown in XIV, and not using stylised, very perspective-driven scenes like the post-Elpis one.

[Cleretic]

All the more reason why this stuff should've been shown in XIV, and not using stylised, very perspective-driven scenes like the post-Elpis one.

So it's a good thing we got that, then. This is the exact same details we got from and through Emet's perspective, it's just that we got it across about four or five different scenes in two expansions, plus a short story or two. The Nier collab is just getting compressed into a few flowery passages with no interruptions.

If you REALLY want to wring useful FFXIV lore we didn't have before out of this collab, then the most you'll actually get is the story of A-towa-cant in Thyrus' weapon story, which actually does have a few new pieces, as well as gathering details that actually aren't especially forthcoming in XIV itself.

You could also see that depiction of the End of Days and the Sundering and notice that it's basically the same as Venat's own flashback, which is useful in confirming that the two accounts do corroborate and validate each other as sources. Which for the most part is probably not needed, but it's a useful point for at least one person I can think of.