Dragoon pretty amazing now with 1.21a hotfix.

[Hyrist]

We don't need a constant BloodBath effect. Because that's what Bloodbath Does - Give HP returns on WSes. If we want to use that sort of effect, we just switch to Lancer.

[InfiniDragon]

I actually think Life Surge give HP on WS instead of AA is a great idea, just as long as they reduce the amount of HP returned per WS. I think they should set it up as a fixed percentage of the Lancer/Dragoon's total HP, so that the big hitters aren't giving back more than the lower cost WS. That way the Lancer/Dragoon can continue to deal damage, and get a moderate amount of HP back at the cost of the attack power you get from a Power Surge.

[Krausus]

I actually think Life Surge give HP on WS instead of AA is a great idea, just as long as they reduce the amount of HP returned per WS. I think they should set it up as a fixed percentage of the Lancer/Dragoon's total HP, so that the big hitters aren't giving back more than the lower cost WS. That way the Lancer/Dragoon can continue to deal damage, and get a moderate amount of HP back at the cost of the attack power you get from a Power Surge.

that would probably be a fair compensation.

[Hyrist]

I actually think Life Surge give HP on WS instead of AA is a great idea, just as long as they reduce the amount of HP returned per WS. I think they should set it up as a fixed percentage of the Lancer/Dragoon's total HP, so that the big hitters aren't giving back more than the lower cost WS. That way the Lancer/Dragoon can continue to deal damage, and get a moderate amount of HP back at the cost of the attack power you get from a Power Surge.

This assumes you're not weaving in-between shots. It's almost identical to what we have at this point anyways.

Both methods achieve the same thing - The more you WS, the less HP is returned, the more you push for HP return, the less WS you have. (Assuming Refreshing Life Surge burns TP per use either way. And you still have to consiter the delay of reusing the skill repeatedly.)

So you'd be changing the mechanics for really the same performance. It would be better to simply beef up the return on Lifesurge as is.

[Alaltus]

This assumes you're not weaving in-between shots. It's almost identical to what we have at this point anyways.

Both methods achieve the same thing - The more you WS, the less HP is returned, the more you push for HP return, the less WS you have. (Assuming Refreshing Life Surge burns TP per use either way. And you still have to consiter the delay of reusing the skill repeatedly.)

So you'd be changing the mechanics for really the same performance. It would be better to simply beef up the return on Lifesurge as is.

They could bring life surge in line with power surge by removing the tp cost entirely have it build up through ws and jump. And where power surge reduces your defense life surge reduces your accuracy or your attack for each tier. So you gain hp from ws's but your dd stats take a hit for it.

[Hyrist]

They could bring life surge in line with power surge by removing the tp cost entirely have it build up through ws and jump. And where power surge reduces your defense life surge reduces your accuracy or your attack for each tier. So you gain hp from ws's but your dd stats take a hit for it.

Not entirely sure, but I believe the defense reduction caps off before the final tier.

But accuracy loss? Hell no, we've already just got over that hurtle. TP is actually the most fair exchange for maintenance of the ability, the duration was extended to offset the troubles doing so mean.

Personally the complaints I'm hearing from this is "I don't want to weave." Which I flatly disagree with. It's just too similar to a Bloodbath that requires less actual planning to get use out of.

So I'm going to turn this on the heel and say "Why?" Why must it be tied to the WSes for it to function? It already works in conjunction with Second Wind for sustainability in the majority of solo circumstances, and in Party our function is DPS, so unless your dungeon crawling and can't get a WS/Jump off once per minute, you really should be using Power Surge over it anyways.

It does it's job, it already got buffed. Why are you so discontent with it?

[Alaltus]

Not entirely sure, but I believe the defense reduction caps off before the final tier.

But accuracy loss? Hell no, we've already just got over that hurtle. TP is actually the most fair exchange for maintenance of the ability, the duration was extended to offset the troubles doing so mean.

Personally the complaints I'm hearing from this is "I don't want to weave." Which I flatly disagree with. It's just too similar to a Bloodbath that requires less actual planning to get use out of.

So I'm going to turn this on the heel and say "Why?" Why must it be tied to the WSes for it to function? It already works in conjunction with Second Wind for sustainability in the majority of solo circumstances, and in Party our function is DPS, so unless your dungeon crawling and can't get a WS/Jump off once per minute, you really should be using Power Surge over it anyways.

It does it's job, it already got buffed. Why are you so discontent with it?

In the current system of where bosses can 1 shot you or bring you dangerously close to death with most attacks on their movesets i dont think theres much danger of life surge hampering the incentive to weave. I dont really care how they fix life surge but you cant deny that weaponskill usage has increased dramatically and so long as your weaponskilling you arent getting hp from lifesurge pitiful as it is already. Life Surge should be buffed to add to lancer's options when in a pt or solo or it should be scrapped entirely and given something else it doesnt have to be godly but atleast of some use. Same goes for Dreadspikes.

[InfiniDragon]

Both methods achieve the same thing - The more you WS, the less HP is returned, the more you push for HP return, the less WS you have. (Assuming Refreshing Life Surge burns TP per use either way. And you still have to consiter the delay of reusing the skill repeatedly.)

Actually, it's a very different thing than what I proposed. Life Surge as it currently stands is only useful for healing if you're solo, because anything that requires a party to kill is going to take very low damage from AA (especially without Power Surge), which means even lower return from the heal. My idea was so that DRG can get a quick bit of HP back without having to worry about a mage (for example, a DRG gets Vulcan Bursted by Ifrit and wants to heal up). They could just as easily implement my "fixed % of the Dragoon's total HP" into Life Surge with AA as the catalyst like current Life Surge...but then my idea would be overpowered as AA is fairly quick and doesn't cost TP. The reason I said WS should be the catalyst isn't because I'm not weaving (you assume incorrectly, I do weave AA), it's because a WS would have a TP cost the Dragoon would have to meet, and for my proposed idea would balance the much better HP return.

[Hyrist]

Both of these debates against it are stemming from one issue - you want every single ability in our kit to function for a party.

To that I call bollocks. Not all of our kit should be party-useful, and things like Dread Spikes and Lifesurge are things that are primarily solo longevity tools.

Once we're in a party, self preservation beyond hate control and hit evasion is no longer our concern - it's the healer's concern. In that respect we are not that dissimilar to Black Mages and the same rules apply.

If you are concerned with Survivability, unequip your Job Crystal and gear survivability (Bloodbath, Sentinel, Cures, etc.) There is really no valid reason to change Life Surege to mimic an ability we can and should be equipping in the circumstances that call for it.

And before you say "But but, my DPS will drop!" Your DPS is going to drop whether you change to Lancer and Survive or stay on Dragoon and die. You either have the mobility and skill to evade the damage and keep yourself alive as a Dragoon, or you settle for the safer route and stick to Lancer. The entire point of having the system is that you take the time to make that judgement call.

Sorry, but changing Live Surge to mimic Bloodbath's functionality crosses the line with me from "Hey, this is broken and we need to fix it." to "I want to have my cake and eat it too."

Maybe as a compromise we could get it to proc a strong HP return on maybe Jump, as that skill is impossible to have with Bloodbath, it's on a long timer, and it would make sense to have some sort of synergy there. - Or that can be a function of Dread Spike where depending on which Surge Consumed it can either give us bonus health or bonus damage when used with Jump.

The trick of course being that it retains it's normal functionality - you'd have to get jump off before you get hit and trigger Dread Spike normally.

That could balance out both Dread Spike and Life Surge while giving us a bit of a damage buff on Jump for the more aggressive as well.

[Gukie]

You can't beat monk--- dragoon are still lame for dps

they made a mistake --- they improved all the dps- for all frontline jobs.
Only dragoon needed improvement.