How would it feel if instead of kaiten, shinten was gone?

[MagiusNecros]

Shinten/Kyuten should upgrade into Senei/Guren. Lose the CD. Make it pure Kenki Spender. Since you only spend Kenki on 4 skills? 2 of which share a CD and have a 2min recast. Trash.

Shinten is pretty garbage right now and is only used when you will overcap or dump it with 3 Shinten/Kyuten before you do your Senei/Guren.

[Quor]

As much crap as Shinten has received lately, it's not a bad ability per se. What makes it bad is when it's the *only* ability you use with Kenki(since Senei/Guren could effectively be removed and placed into Ikishoten with 0 effective change to how either of them work). Kaiten is important, but it's the interplay between Kaiten, Shinten (and before 6.0) the rest of our kit that makes SAM an engaging job. The goal was always to get as many Shinten's out as possible while still using Kaiten on every Iaijutsu. That was the "perfection" that every serious SAM player was trying to achieve, and it requires both the existence of Shinten and Kaiten to bring back that kind of engagement.

[Ruminous]

Shinten's bashed because as of right now it's one of the only things we can do with our kenki. Removing shinten but keeping kaiten is still going to present the same problem, because both are pieces of a whole. If you remove one, the other suffers. No, what they should've done was add other kenki spenders going from 80 to 90 that interacted with the kenki and sen portions. Stressing the importance of management of both to make you a better player is what would give samurais something more interesting. Keeping seigan in would go a long way in that, making merciful eyes a kenki spender (but do something else) would probably help. Making meditate not rely on us standing there to channel it...These are things that change the flow of kenki and would be interesting ways to play with the kit that do more than collect stickers.

[TankHunter678]

Remove Shinten and Kyuten. Reduce Senei and Guren recast time, remove Senei and Guren recast share, remove senei and guren kenki cost, and treat them as weapon skills so we can use kaiten on them.

This way Kaiten is used to buff our big hits, the Iajutsu, Ogi, Senei, and Guren.

If you have to just rework Shinten/Kyuten and have it upgrade to Senei/Guren. I simply just dont want to spam Shinten because it simply does not feel good. I would rather Dark Arts Kaiten.

[xAFROx]

Removing either would just highlight separately similar issues. Honestly, the best they could do would be to dial back the design of SAM to what it was in ShB. It still had all the kenki spenders and different costs, as well as earning kenki through positionals. I didn't even notice the change in EW because I was always going for positionals to maximize my gauge and used True North every time I saw that wasn't going to happen quickly.

Either they make the gauge matter again or they listen to feedback and consolidate Senei and Guren into Shinten and Kyuten under certain effect buffs like Ikishoten.

Thats all I want from the job. Make it fun again and make its kit have something to manage. The job was never hard for it.

[Ruminous]

One problem I would say that's been highlighted with the 6.1 changes is how fast kenki can be generated. Even outside of ikishoten, you basically get a shinten's worth of kenki every full kasha/gekko combo. Sort of makes it a commodity and thus, not very fun to spend. Especially now with kaiten not being there, having to shinten so often is just more annoying than meaningful.

[Theodric_Thorne]

It might cause problems with turning Kaiten into a Dark Arts skill that is used too often (assuming we traded Shinten to get Kaiten back) but I wouldn't miss Shinten much if it vanished tomorrow. I'd rather dump excess Kenki gauge into a powerful single hit like Guren or Senei.

Weirdly though, Kyuten doesn't feel bad to spam, I enjoy dumping that into a pack of trash mobs. I guess because it's an AoE?

[cjbeagle]

It might cause problems with turning Kaiten into a Dark Arts skill that is used too often (assuming we traded Shinten to get Kaiten back) but I wouldn't miss Shinten much if it vanished tomorrow. I'd rather dump excess Kenki gauge into a powerful single hit like Guren or Senei.

Weirdly though, Kyuten doesn't feel bad to spam, I enjoy dumping that into a pack of trash mobs. I guess because it's an AoE?

I'd rather have both Kaiten and Shinten, but only Kaiten would be vastly better than only Shinten since Kaiten is part of your rotation - it would actually add a little complexity to our rotation because we'd want to burn extra kenki on Kaiten Kasha or Kaiten Gekko instead of just dumping whenever we want.

As for Kyuten, I actually find it vastly more enjoyable than Shinten as well, and for me at least, I think it's 100% because of how well the animation flows with our AOE GCDs. The same can't be said for Guren, which is why I dislike it (but I love Senei).

[RyuuZero]

just curious. i am on the boat that both these skills are important to sam kenki gauge.
but i do wonder not only how the job feels but how the people would react if shinten was gone instead.

I guess we would do more Kaiten then, like actively using Kaiten within the 1-2-3 Combos
it would lead to too much Kenki to use for, which Shinten and Kyuten are there to address^^

[RyuuZero]

Shinten/Kyuten should upgrade into Senei/Guren. Lose the CD. Make it pure Kenki Spender. Since you only spend Kenki on 4 skills? 2 of which share a CD and have a 2min recast. Trash.

Shinten is pretty garbage right now and is only used when you will overcap or dump it with 3 Shinten/Kyuten before you do your Senei/Guren.

hmm I won't like that because Kyuten is a Quick Circle AoE and Guren is a Line AoE, while true it may save buttons, I always line up Iki with Senei or Guren because both have a 2minute cool down ^^