Either enforce roles or remove them entirely

[Anhra]

I felt this way when the mode was new, but its just blatantly false. Roles matter a lot and make a significant difference.

Funny how you say its "false" and it makes a difference, yet you dont elaborate further.

Because it doesn't. Roles are a PvE Concept and even in PvE, depending on the Game the classic setup of having at least one Tank and one Healer isnt even always needed, but im getting offtopic here.

In PvP, what truly matters is individuality/Job identity. PvP is chaotic (and fast) by nature in MMORPG's, so much, that you cant apply PvE balance and Roles into it without breaking the Mode entirely.


Allow me to remind you, that pre 6.1 PvP including Feast, had the Role Model you desperately defend in mind, and i dont need to tell you or anyone how "fun" PvP was back then.

[Risvertasashi]

Well if we're going to throw around "I got crystal so I know what I'm talking about", I've done so across two characters and I'll say this - I'd take a team of 5 DPS that knows how to play and focus target over a "meta" comp every time. No, I don't think it's perfectly balanced or even close, but locking role requirements wouldn't fix that part.

Also, "1v1 me bro" is one of the dumbest things I've seen yet. The game is not balanced around 1v1. White mage is one of the worst jobs for 1v1. Yet you probably think a team with a white mage has a serious advantage over a 5 DPS team, yeah? (I'd still take the 5 DPS team if they know what they're doing - they could erase the WHM or anyone else before they could even react).

[Tobias_Azuryon]

(I'd still take the 5 DPS team if they know what they're doing - they could erase the WHM or anyone else before they could even react).

Therein lies the "Rub" as they say.

You can't depend on your team.

You can't depend on the server.

You can't depend on cc immunity.

You can't depend on the communication tools in game as limited as they are.

You can't depend on matchmaking.

So what can you rely on? Your kit? Well those are imbalanced too.

All of these issues stacked up make the problem the mountain it is, sure, but they're still problems individually.

There's no way people can say with a straight face that a healer on the other team can't/won't make a difference for the team if they're on equal footing skill wise. ESPECIALLY if it's a WHM due to the cc/protect/etc. Countering one insane scenario of "all dps party would suck" with another of "no all dps party would ruuuule" doesn't change the fact that while roles are not strictly enforced you absolutely DO notice them when played well.

We can say the mode is based around not "needing" them sure but to pretend like a good WAR or good WHM won't help change the tide against a party is nonsense and being openly obtuse.

[Ransu]

It also depends on the composition of those 5 dps. If its a bunch of ranged casters and a single melee vs a war/whm and all melee dps with rdm or brd mixed in for silence for the rest....lol good luck. Its pretty easy to shutdown casters with a stack of melee diving them.

The matchmaking in general is just bad. Double tanks or double healers, teams stacked with melee vs stacked with casters etc....It should at least attempt to balance out the team compositions instead of just looking at your general rank. The fact that queues pop within 10 seconds makes me question what little matchmaking the game even has.

[Risvertasashi]

The problem you're both alluding to there is the DPS are imbalanced. And I agree.

Give me a DRG+NIN+any 3 other DPS, meta or not (but a RDM would be fantastic), and - again, given that they know what they're doing - I'd take that over a WAR+WHM+3DPS team.

But you'll notice here role requirements don't fix anything. The problem is DRG+NIN can coordinate to virtually-instant-kill anything - and adding more DPS, even bad ones, just makes it more reliable if they don't coordinate perfectly. The problem with not wanting a team of, say, BLM, BRD, DNC, etc is because those individual jobs are too weak. Again, misguided role requirements won't fix that. (Though, I'd still take BRD with that DRG+NIN combo - silence is gold on a target being bursted)

[Ransu]

I'd still take the whm+war combo over an all dps team. There's just too much utility between the two to cause so much disruption for the opposing team.

Also, its not that BLM and BRD are too weak (I can't comment on DNC, I haven't played it), its just that the lack of proper matchmaking makes their weaknesses stick out a lot more. A BRD LB doesn't have a heavy impact in a fight and they are heavily reliant on the team because its a support job that doesn't really have any burst. If you focus fire the target I just marked and silenced then ya BRD is strong as hell. Outside of that? lol good luck. Same with BLM. Their fire rotation is worthless, don't waste your superflares on it. Ice though? Hoooo boy they can cause some serious disruptions.....problem is that can't move while casting so its easy to just get away from them and God help them if a melee dives them. Their sleep is also....just meh.

Neither BLM or BRD are bursty and rely heavily on the rest of the team to peel for them and focus the targets they are controlling (silence/freeze). Less so BRD because repelling shot is pretty decent, but BLM is pretty limited on their ability to escape.

Basically when matchmaking decides to stack a bunch of casters....you're gonna have a bad time because no one will really peel for anyone as they are too busy running away themselves. Matchmaking should at least attempt to find a balance of melee and ranged between each team instead of just stacking all of one or the other.