Some classes have become too overpowered

[Gserpent]

You really think RDM and NIN are on the same level? LMAO.
RDM is literally god tier. I wish NIN could melee as well as a RDM or do ranged damage damage as well as a RDM.

Also there's no way DNC is better than a Bard. Perhaps you used some of that glue yourself.

RDM is definitely the strongest class, IMO. Particularly since there's not a lot *to* it. NIN is very strong but a bad NIN tends to feed a lot while a bad RDM still probably kills someone before they die anyway.

RPR, when played well, is right up there with RDM though. The charge time on their LB is absurd for it being an AOE unbreakable 2 sec CC that forces movement away from the point. But there are a *lot* of garbage RPR players, so it's not like "oh they have RPR I guess we lose" like it is with RDM.

[Ransu]

RPR LB is counter productive. The fear is great, but their LB is a melee combo so now you have to chase a target to fully utilize your LB.

[gioroggia]

Its not even a job balance thing, its a design thing. There's too much CC. Silence and poly should just straight up not exist, purify needs to be 10 seconds of immunity and not 5, the one shot LBs should not exist, whm LB charges way too fast.....the list goes on and on. The mode is just a dumpster fire. I've played indie pvp games with better thought out designs and balance than this garbage.

Yep. Design flaws everywhere. It was only exciting at the very beginning when I didn't yet have a solid idea of what each job can do. Once you understand how it plays out, then you see it for the mess that it is. The only thing CC has going for it is the quick pace of the matches.

I am not optimistic about their ability to improve anything at this point. The pvp mode is incredibly simple for an MMO - it's 5x5, no gear involved, no different builds, only 6 or 7 buttons to smash, it's completely detached from PvE concerns... And it still came out incredibly unbalanced and with some very glaring design issues.

Other games do a better job while accounting for gear disparity, different builds, different game modes, and using the same skills used in PvE.

[gioroggia]

Yes, you can definitely choose to play the job wrong and deal substantially less damage for no reason.
DRG has no CC and no ability to chase. If you're not maximizing your burst, you're a minor annoyance without your team doing the heavy lifting.
DRG is inferior to NIN and RDM even when it's played correctly, but by all means, make it worse.

I agree with you. IMO Dragoon is overestimated, likely because people see the raw damage numbers at the end and believe it wrecked the enemy team.

There are two issues here. The first one is that Dragoons don't do anything besides damage. They have no utility and - very importantly - not a single form of crowd control, which is an incredibly powerful tool for helping you and your team close kills. In a game where every job can cast instant self-heals and use guard, cc is just formidable, and Dragoon has none. The second issue is that much of that damage is "wasted" damage. Dragoon has a decent burst if you use the jump-back ranged attack correctly, but unlike every other melee DPS it sucks at chasing due to having only a single gap closer and having no stuns or speed% buffs. You can very easily heal through the burst and then there is absolutely nothing the Dragoon can do against you. On top of that, a decent portion of the Dragoon's damage comes from AOE, which is just inferior to single-target burst damage because it is less likely to result in enemies getting killed. 140k damage distributed between three enemies such that one takes 70k and the other two 35k each is worse than 140k damage where one took 100k and the others 20k each. The higher the portion of your damage that is dealt as a single-target burst, the more useful it is for you and your team because it is more likely to lead to kills. For these reasons, 1m damage dealt by a dragoon is inferior to 1m damage dealt by a ninja, samurai, reaper, monk, or RDM. Dragoon's damage is just less likely to lead to a kill and more likely to be healed off.

The numbers at the end don't tell you how much of the damage is single target vs AOE or how much utility or crowd control the player brought to the team (except heals). So Dragoon looks on paper quite a bit better than the actual value of its contribution to the team.

[Nanne]

Other games do a better job while accounting for gear disparity, different builds, different game modes, and using the same skills used in PvE.

And we have had all that and the PvP still never took off and this is like the 4th attempt at trying something different that maybe works

[Gserpent]

Yep. Design flaws everywhere. It was only exciting at the very beginning when I didn't yet have a solid idea of what each job can do. Once you understand how it plays out, then you see it for the mess that it is. The only thing CC has going for it is the quick pace of the matches.

I am not optimistic about their ability to improve anything at this point. The pvp mode is incredibly simple for an MMO - it's 5x5, no gear involved, no different builds, only 6 or 7 buttons to smash, it's completely detached from PvE concerns... And it still came out incredibly unbalanced and with some very glaring design issues.

Other games do a better job while accounting for gear disparity, different builds, different game modes, and using the same skills used in PvE.

CC is pretty well designed. There are some outlying balance concerns, but on the whole it's pretty well tuned right now. RDM, AST, and arguably RPR are a little too strong right now. GNB needs substantial changes to be more playable because it's mostly just a worse MNK in its current iteration. Otherwise, classes are pretty well balanced.

Crowd control isn't a problem. People whining about CC quite frankly are not very good at the game and haven't learned how to position themselves properly. If you're positioned well, you aren't likely to get popped by a CC chain - and if it does happen, they had to overextend to such an extent to accomplish it that your team will win the rest of the fight anyway.

Unfortunately, just like any PvP game, the people making the most noise are simultaneously the people that know the least about the game they're talking about - because they're here whining about things instead of actually learning to play it. As long as SE doesn't make dumb balance changes based off of meta and whining, it'll be fine - but they already buffed AST and SCH (who were both completely fine) and nerfed WHM even though none of them needed any changes at all, probably because WHM is greatly over-represented at low skill tiers because of how strong it is against dumb people that don't pay attention to things.

The biggest issues with CC aren't related to class design and balance. Overtime is not very well thought-out and needs some substantial alterations, and I'd argue there's a bit too much of a difference between the maps. Some classes fare much worse than others on some maps (volcano in particular), to the point that you probably shouldn't play those classes on those maps if you're assuming you'll be against competent opponents.

[gioroggia]

CC is pretty well designed. There are some outlying balance concerns, but on the whole it's pretty well tuned right now. RDM, AST, and arguably RPR are a little too strong right now. GNB needs substantial changes to be more playable because it's mostly just a worse MNK in its current iteration. Otherwise, classes are pretty well balanced.

Crowd control isn't a problem. People whining about CC quite frankly are not very good at the game and haven't learned how to position themselves properly. If you're positioned well, you aren't likely to get popped by a CC chain - and if it does happen, they had to overextend to such an extent to accomplish it that your team will win the rest of the fight anyway.

Unfortunately, just like any PvP game, the people making the most noise are simultaneously the people that know the least about the game they're talking about - because they're here whining about things instead of actually learning to play it. As long as SE doesn't make dumb balance changes based off of meta and whining, it'll be fine - but they already buffed AST and SCH (who were both completely fine) and nerfed WHM even though none of them needed any changes at all, probably because WHM is greatly over-represented at low skill tiers because of how strong it is against dumb people that don't pay attention to things.

The biggest issues with CC aren't related to class design and balance. Overtime is not very well thought-out and needs some substantial alterations, and I'd argue there's a bit too much of a difference between the maps. Some classes fare much worse than others on some maps (volcano in particular), to the point that you probably shouldn't play those classes on those maps if you're assuming you'll be against competent opponents.

I agree with your last point on the job differences on each map.

But what you said before that is just meaningless. In any game with a bad design you can complain about the design, use it to your advantage, or both. This doesn't mean the game is well made. Yeah, it is true that people often complain about jobs or skills without truly knowing how they work or considering every side of the issue. It is also true that this game's pvp mode plays and feels like a live beta. And dude, no, it is not "well-tuned" at all.

[gioroggia]

And we have had all that and the PvP still never took off and this is like the 4th attempt at trying something different that maybe works

Indeed. But now that PvP is just a mini game completely unrelated to the PvE side of the game they have A LOT of freedom to tweak things around because they don't need to think about gear, PvE balance, etc etc. And still there are some very questionable design choices as well as lack of balance across the board which they are slow to address. They have it easier than the PvP teams of most other MMOs and still could not do a good job. Maybe it will get better in the future, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Ransu]

Unfortunately, just like any PvP game, the people making the most noise are simultaneously the people that know the least about the game they're talking about - because they're here whining about things instead of actually learning to play it..

Coming from someone who thinks fire for blm is viable lmao. You have no credibility in any discussion.

[Sidamel]

And we have had all that and the PvP still never took off and this is like the 4th attempt at trying something different that maybe works

They should give up on arena pvp. The current client can't support such a mode in a proper way.