Keep our skills when Level syncing in dungeons

[Tlachtga]

love how the ToS ceases to exist in these topics and people would kick the sprouts all the time. reminds me of the parser threads. "ppl would be toxic ALL THE TIME" yea imagine if there was rules against that. if that was the case, you'd get ppl kicking melees from Sastasha, Tamtara and Copperbell because they don't have aoe skills at that level.

or you get ppl pointing out the toolkit difference between 90 tanks and sprouts as if both could be in the same Sastasha instance. like there's issues with implementation outside those niche hypotheticals lul

the low level combat is terrible though. you get all this QOL from later expacs and its just gone from the synced lowbie stuff, to the extent where its not fun. imo you get too much too late. there's certain skills that should be unlocked at 50, and the later levels should be more sparse.

like who actually enjoys BLM without Umbral Soul? Why does WHM get Solace at 52 but Rapture at 76? Why can DRK still not use their raid shield in UCOB and UWU? Why did they make Huraijin lvl60 when Armour Crush was already a 54 skill? Why does BRD get their 3 songs at 30, 40 and 52? that's just a few examples, but i think if ppl weren't forced to play these broken half-jobs at sync there would be less complaints.

[Jaquan]

SNIP

Right... Let's get from the start. People ignore and break the rules all the time. Actually giving them extra reasons for elitism or discrimination against others is a bad idea. And the disparity between naturally low level players and "scaled down" ones will be huge. If there's one thing constant about MMO players is that they tend to hold meta in way too high of regard.

The other thing you bring is well... Yeah there are gaps in low level combat although as a low end BLM I actually enjoy my kit even though I'm definitely not having Umbral Soul yet. The thing you bring is about progression and sorry to say that but you can't front load the class too much or else the later levels won't feel as good. They need to fill the later levels somehow.

[Packetdancer]

Right... Let's get from the start. People ignore and break the rules all the time. Actually giving them extra reasons for elitism or discrimination against others is a bad idea. And the disparity between naturally low level players and "scaled down" ones will be huge. If there's one thing constant about MMO players is that they tend to hold meta in way too high of regard.

To add to this...

We are, collectively, a playerbase who are extremely impatient. Witness the number of threads about how it's a Crime Against Humanity for a tank to single pull in higher-end content because it makes the dungeon take like, 8-10 minutes more. (To be fair, I find it excruciatingly dull when a tank single-pulls. I'm not going to yell at them for it, but I could still be considered part of the problem there.)

Witness that, rules or no, no one ever waited for sprouts to watch the cutscenes in the old MSQ duties, to the point that SQEX just threw in the towel and made the cutscenes unskippable. And then we had dozens upon dozens of threads about how the cutscenes should be skippable if no one in the instance was a first timer... in which people outright admitted they would leave an instance that did have a first-timer when it meant they would not be able to skip the cutscenes.

If you think that the power differential between an on-level sprout and someone with their full kit would not have people kicking sprouts (or leaving instances immediately), you have not been paying close attention to this community's behavior, historically speaking.

As I've put it before in discussing various things: sometimes players are going to throw spitballs, but that doesn't mean SQEX needs to hand them the paper to do it.

[RaijinThunder]

love how the ToS ceases to exist in these topics and people would kick the sprouts all the time. reminds me of the parser threads. "ppl would be toxic ALL THE TIME" yea imagine if there was rules against that. if that was the case, you'd get ppl kicking melees from Sastasha, Tamtara and Copperbell because they don't have aoe skills at that level.

or you get ppl pointing out the toolkit difference between 90 tanks and sprouts as if both could be in the same Sastasha instance. like there's issues with implementation outside those niche hypotheticals lul

the low level combat is terrible though. you get all this QOL from later expacs and its just gone from the synced lowbie stuff, to the extent where its not fun. imo you get too much too late. there's certain skills that should be unlocked at 50, and the later levels should be more sparse.

like who actually enjoys BLM without Umbral Soul? Why does WHM get Solace at 52 but Rapture at 76? Why can DRK still not use their raid shield in UCOB and UWU? Why did they make Huraijin lvl60 when Armour Crush was already a 54 skill? Why does BRD get their 3 songs at 30, 40 and 52? that's just a few examples, but i think if ppl weren't forced to play these broken half-jobs at sync there would be less complaints.

EXACTLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS

[BokoToloko]

Concentrate the class progression into earlier levels in lieu of

Or do a level squish like WoW. While I know squat about designing that stuff, maybe it could be designed so that every expansions allows for a chance to level a different job. So every leveling content prior to current expact goes up to level 50, and each time you jump to a different expansion, the MSQ minimum level drops to 30 then climbs back to 50. And then SE would load most of the kit in those 50 levels.

Then on current expansion you start at 50 and level to 60, getting the shiny new expansion buttons.

It would allow us to be like derplander, who changes jobs every expansion.

This is just a random idea, though.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

But we can both agree majority of classes rotations are poop at lower levels yes?

Yes, but plainly scaling down the potencies to keep full rotations and character status simply won't suffice; it will 100% break the game. This has been refuted so many many many many many times in past threads coupled with their hard calculations. In this thread, Mikey_R already presented you a glimpse to that and even that is already nightmare to deal with. Now do that to all 19 jobs.

The best(?) they could probably do is to introduce a few or some buttons at lower level, new, returned, or existing. DRK gets a glimpse of this treatment by having their AoE finisher Stalwart Soul moved from lv72 to lv40. RDM have their Engagement moved from lv72 to lv40. But hey, they can still do more, like:

1. Have NIN learn their Armor Crush or Huraijin learn in ARR lv range, because having to use Huton in mid combat is horrible.
2. Have WHM relearn their good old Fluid Aura as baby Assize, Stoneskin as baby Divine Benison, Divine Seal as baby Temperance, all of these in ARR lv range.
3. Have DRG learn their first AoE Doom Spike at lv15 instead of lv41 (!!!)
4. Or basically all melees should at least receive their first AoE attack at lv15.
5. This is a bit wild: sync toolkits based on expansions. I.e. if you get Sohm Al, you will have access to all buttons up to lv60. If you get Shisui, all buttons up to lv70 will be useable. I don't think this will work on ARR expansion dungeon but I'll just put it here.

Full toolkits? Sorry, no. Plenty of us already presented you the reasons behind this limitation. No offense (for real), but please read them thoroughly before replying. Because based on your last chain of posts after being absent from first page, you seem to be reading the replies one at a time to catch up the missed posts and answers them as you read them.

Also this:

Also can you please try to adress some of the stuff mentioned like Tank invulns, party buffs and healer OGCDs, how do you scale down utility/buff abilities to be on par with not having them at all? People advocating for this seems to only think about damage, and forget everything else exists.

EDIT: Thank you Mesarthim for correcting me on Engagement level.

[RaijinThunder]

Yes, but plainly scaling down the potencies to keep full rotations and character status simply won't suffice; it will 100% break the game. This has been refuted so many many many many many times in past threads coupled with their hard calculations. In this thread, Mikey_R already presented you a glimpse to that and even that is already nightmare to deal with. Now do that to all 19 jobs.

The best(?) they could probably do is to introduce a few or some buttons at lower level, new, returned, or existing. DRK gets a glimpse of this treatment by having their AoE finisher Stalwart Soul moved from lv72 to lv40. RDM have their Engagement moved from lv76 to lv40. But hey, they can still do more, like:

1. Have NIN learn their Armor Crush or Huraijin learn in ARR lv range, because having to use Huton in mid combat is horrible.
2. Have WHM relearn their good old Fluid Aura as baby Assize, Stoneskin as baby Divine Benison, Divine Seal as baby Temperance, all of these in ARR lv range.
3. Have DRG learn their first AoE Doom Spike at lv15 instead of lv41 (!!!)
4. Or basically all melees should at least receive their first AoE attack at lv15.
5. This is a bit wild: sync toolkits based on expansions. I.e. if you get Sohm Al, you will have access to all buttons up to lv60. If you get Shisui, all buttons up to lv70 will be useable. I don't think this will work on ARR expansion dungeon but I'll just put it here.

Full toolkits? Sorry, no. Plenty of us already presented you with the reasons behind this limitation. No offense (for real), but please read them thoroughly before replying. Because based on your last chain of posts after being absent from the first page, you seem to be reading the replies one at a time to catch up on the missed posts and answer them as you read them.

Also this:

Then we change the roulette system entirely. At level 90 extreme and hard versions for all dungeons will be unlocked for tome farming. NPC's will help fill in for newer players if a role can't be found up to the max level. So now there will be normal roulettes hard roulette and extreme roulettes. Bosses in dungeons will be given additional mechanics for each difficulty just like they do it in the trails

[Mikey_R]

Then we change the roulette system entirely. At level 90 extreme and hard versions for all dungeons will be unlocked for tome farming. NPC's will help fill in for newer players if a role can't be found up to the max level. So now there will be normal roulettes hard roulette and extreme roulettes. Bosses in dungeons will be given additional mechanics for each difficulty just like they do it in the trails

So you want the dev team to spend a ton of time remaking EVERY dungeon to bring them up to level 90 standards. If they were to do this, we have no new content for a long time or, if they done it incrementally, it would take a long time and alot of resources. It is just a silly suggestion.

All you have said is you want tomes, however, there are so many different ways to get tomes, you can avoid levelling roulette altogether and not even encounter the lower levels at all. It is your choice to do this content, knowing what the consequences are.

This does not mean, however, low levels have to stay bland. There is no reason low levels cannot be reworked to potentially introduce mechanics early, even if it is just a weaker version, like Monk and Steal Peak -> The Forbidden Chakra. Giving all jobs some sort of AoE by level 15 (except maybe Healers). They already fixed one of my biggest issues with DRK in that they moved Stalwart Soul from level 72 to level 40, bringing it in par with the other tanks. Raidwide mitigation can be moved to be available at about the same level for all tanks etc.

Whether this happens or not is a different matter, it seems to be a theme with jobs they rework, Summoner has the same basic rotation at low levels as it does at higher levels after all, however it is the better solution to the low level problem than allowing everything at all times.