SAM players are quitting

[Lyth]

...

The one thing that people invariably forget is that, sub or not, you can't actually log on to the forums without having logged on to your character within the past 14 days, and the forums auto-log you out when that flag hits. It's actually incredibly easy to fact check this from the post date, and I can tell you that there are quite a few 'expiry dates' coming up on some oddly active posters.

On the plus side, if true, at least that will mean less duplicate and toxic threads, as well as a return to higher quality posting.

Another potency shift, Kaiten returns, Kaiten just makes the next weaponskill auto-crit.

Oddly enough, this is exactly what I would predict them to do in response to feedback. Kaiten was never their primary target in the first place.

[FrogBiscuit]

Critiquing Samurai's difficulty? Kaiten meaningless?
Brainless design gameplay? Lets see your creditability...

The funniest part in reflection to the poster you are responding to is, they are effectively stating:
- The job was never hard (which never was anyone's argument)
- The job already has a simplistic rotation (which never was anyone's argument)
- Kaiten's removal didn't change SAM at all (not even stated as 'Kaiten's removal had minimalist impact... but it didn't change anything... You know, despite the 99% of SAM that disagree with the person that doesn't play SAM)

and despite what contradictory statements they made above, then go to question:
- Why are SAM players upset over SE making their simplistic job even more simple?!


The people that go far out of their way to comically defeat themselves with their very own words are amusing. They effectively have been proving themselves wrong or silly by providing the very contradictory self defeating answers to their very own criticism on the subject to effectively a 100% posting average.

At first I was irritated by the endlessly, narcissistic derailment they try to hijack the thread with... At this point however, silly self righteous arguments like JanVanding's which effectively answer their own boneheaded criticism from the start simple comes across as clownish, provides a chuckle, and the topic/thread a bump.

Keep them coming guys...

[DreadfullyAwful]

The one thing that people invariably forget is that, sub or not, you can't actually log on to the forums without having logged on to your character within the past 14 days, and the forums auto-log you out when that flag hits. It's actually incredibly easy to fact check this from the post date, and I can tell you that there are quite a few 'expiry dates' coming up on some oddly active posters.

I was very active on the forums post 6.1, but I got discouraged after 6.11 and the lack of developer feedback despite the uproar - which seemed to be overshadowed by the house lottery crisis. I am very much wait and see now, but I'm sure even when my forum privileges are gone, it will remain a very active and prominent issue until/if it is a addressed.

私も絶で侍使用しています。
うちの固定には近接が私だけなので火力で遅れをとるようなことはあまりなかったのですが、
昨日の野良募集で一緒にプレイした忍者さんにはだいぶ劣るという結果でした。
詩人さんのバトルボイス、忍者さんの騙しのタイミングに閃影や震天をずらした開幕バーストですら敵わない。
悲しい…ピュアDPSとは…いったい…

他DPSのスレも盛り上がってるのかなーと見てみたら6.1リリース後からのコメント数
侍 792
モ 9
竜 201
リ 17
忍 125
機 61
踊 11
詩 101
赤 48
召 62
黒 3


こんだけフィードバックがあるんですから、なんとかしてください。
ずっと侍使い続けてきたのに今モンク用の装備を揃えようとしてるところです、悲しい…

This JP player showed that on their forums, feedback has rapidly exploded following the 6.1 proposed changes, with players leaving the same amount of feedback as the total feedback between 4.0 as 6.1. That is 2~ years worth of feedback over one patch. Despite how much other players (after scanning accounts, that do not even have SAM 90 if a 90 at all) in this thread wish to dismiss this issue, it is definitely a change that has troubled players across all data centers.

[AsiTsurugi]

The one thing that people invariably forget is that, sub or not, you can't actually log on to the forums without having logged on to your character within the past 14 days, and the forums auto-log you out when that flag hits. It's actually incredibly easy to fact check this from the post date, and I can tell you that there are quite a few 'expiry dates' coming up on some oddly active posters.

On the plus side, if true, at least that will mean less duplicate and toxic threads, as well as a return to higher quality posting.

Oddly enough, this is exactly what I would predict them to do in response to feedback. Kaiten was never their primary target in the first place.

"Higher quality posting" such as dismissing anyone with any sort of feedback about any job changes either very openly or (not particularly thinly) veiled, like yours? Or was it trying to derail threads in job subforums to be about housing plots and Gpose options? Or is this "your forums", and we are polluting it with content you do not approve of?

Because going through the forums, this "higher quality posting" is in fact restricted to threads about job feedback, which you and your fellow "regulars" seem to feel the need to come in and derail or dismiss claiming they are not, presumably your preferred type of, "higher quality posting"?

[FrogBiscuit]

On the plus side, if true, at least that will mean less duplicate and toxic threads, as well as a return to higher quality posting.

Sort of odd to assert that people making the choice to un-sub due to their current opinion of the game, are the source of poor quality, toxic threads...

The vast majority of toxicity has been sourced from people who are going out of their way to speak down to and criticize their fellow players on a subject that clearly isn't terribly important to them (clearly expressed by the argument of theirs effectively being "Why are you overreacting? Its not that important!").


You want to see the majority of toxicity and crude posts to leave the forum? That would require people simply allowing others to speak their mind when SE asks for the very feedback they are getting and for those who take some self centered issue with the other posters doing so, to simply hold their peace and not post when they don't have anything constructive or beneficial to add. Taking a contradictory stance, or posing conflicting statements is more then fine... But that isn't representative of the vast majority of the condemnation that has been posted in response to the SAM outcry over the 6.1 changes.


If you don't want toxicity in the forums, it has very little to do with the SAM players taking a break. Its is almost entirely rooted behind people who take issue to other players expressing their opinion to a company (who asked for the very thing) for some obscure reason and insist on letting the world know about it.

I would argue there is typically far more detail and thought in a post coming from a passionate player with clear care for a game they have been playing, then that of a poster who's only existence in the thread is for telling the other people in the thread that they are overreacting, their opinions are overblown and incorrect, and should really just shut up...

[DreadfullyAwful]

Quote

I completely agree with your statement. However, I welcome the criticism of these players as they are working to their own detriment. For, not only are they exposing the flaws in their own logic the more they argue, but they keep SAM threads prominently displayed at the top of the DPS so that the issue does not decay away.

[FrogBiscuit]

I completely agree with your statement. However, I welcome the criticism of these players as they are working to their own detriment. For, not only are they exposing the flaws in their own logic the more they argue, but they keep SAM threads prominently displayed at the top of the DPS so that the issue does not decay away.

Oh, 100% :P

I personally have gotten over the toxicity and at this point just interpret it as unconscious support for our issue.

But I have to admit its hard to stop myself from pointing out how a post directly contradicts reality...

[Kabooa]

I'd be down to debate some nuance - let's hear your thoughts. fwiw I agree that it's almost entirely an issue of feel, though I do maintain that the complete removal of kenki management goes beyond feel.

This is actually my biggest problem with the changes to samurai - DPS is my preferred role and melee specifically over ranged, and samurai was the only melee I really enjoyed. I'm lukewarm at best towards most kits, so trying to replace samurai as my main has been more or less futile.

Out of curiosity, what is your favorite kit? (and why, if you care to elaborate)

It varies depending on the encounter. Less demanding encounters I will generally pick something I'm more unfamiliar with, such as Dragoon, Bard, or in some cases, Dark Knight.

Dragoon has long been a class that has been at odds with how my brain works, so attempting to get better at it is an attempt at expanding my play capability. As someone who tries to work out what works blind, the multiple timers, buffs, and now First Mind present more or less a puzzle. Simply put, Dragoon has one of the more robust OGCD kits. More classes need to be built like them if their GCD kits stay as stale as they are.

Bard is the polar opposite of what I usually play, in that it is more proc based, and more about syncing up to create powerful party windows - The actual kit itself I don't have any attachment to, but again, it's about the playstyle and doing something different. I found the appeal here tends to be more about lining up with the fight tempo, finding where the windows are to be created, and then pushing them out - It's an odd and ethereal sense that, yes, I did just line up the Radiant, battle voice window, hit everyone, and have just entered my own burst phase, but whether or not it bears fruit you'll never know without some outside help. It's weird. It's not deterministic like other jobs, and you'll never know if anyone else was actively watching for your buffs to dump in, outside of organized groups.

Despite all the ups and downs Dark Knight has had over the years, there's some childish glee about the burst window being this frenzy of every single button combined with mixing in the tank busters. It's how Stormblood Machinist used to function in some ways - Extremely high peaks of activity, and then a cooldown period in between. Nostalgia perhaps?

There are encounters that are run in this seemingly flawless beat, and to that I'll say Black Mage, but any of the classes that prefer to be stationary work here (So...Black Mage and the Healers), because lining up with this tempo creates so of the most enjoyable feedback loops once you find that rhythm. These encounters include Kefka (o8s), Shiva (e8s), and Titan (E4s). There's just enough randomness to them that you can't just do a static rotation, and the proc/swap nature of Black Mage lined up basically perfectly with them in a Call/Response method. The enemy has called, and now you respond with your toolkit to maintain your spells.

I found the same to be true specifically for Gunbreaker and E12s, and if Continuation ever did get the 6y treatment, I'm glad I got to do E12s while it was at 3y. The restriction of Gnashing Fang and Continuation added a level of tension that I frankly don't think any of the other tanks would provide there.

Apologies for going out of order, but I imagine that it helps for context - I play a lot of things in a lot of content.

I'd be down to debate some nuance - let's hear your thoughts. fwiw I agree that it's almost entirely an issue of feel, though I do maintain that the complete removal of kenki management goes beyond feel.

So, starting with Kenki - I think it'd actually be quite difficult to bottom out on Kenki that you can't use Kaiten and thus create meaningful management. It's a scenario that would take some active effort to do so, but I'll also admit that perhaps I think too highly of players in the game. Samurai is very close to having Paladin's "MP management", which is to say, they are given so much Kenki that not having the bare amounts to perform Kaiten requires quite a few conditionals that both the playerbase and the Developer team provide discouragement from achieving.

First, lets talk about when Kaiten is first earned. Your Kenki economy at this time is frugal, at best. You are taught, quite cleanly, that you get just enough Kenki to use kaiten about once per full Sen acquirement. Even when you gain more Kenki abilities this does not change. The leveling process teaches (or rather, should teach) that Kenki is for Kaiten and Kaiten is for Iaijutsu. This is the first thing you learn.

When you acquire your Kenki dump, Shinten, is when your economy grows, but the majority of your early experience in Samurai was formulating this basic connection - Kenki is for Kaiten for Iaijutsu. With Guren, you're given an immensely powerful OGCD that costs Kenki, and it is here that the Developer's lessons end, when they are done teaching your basic Kenki priority. Shinten < Kaiten Sword Draw < Big Kenki Damager.

In short, when you hit 70 and move on, you've been taught your priority, you've been taught to be frugal with your Kenki, and you've been taught to dump your excess. Moving forward, with Ikishoten, your Kenki for the burst window is basically solved. Hit Ikishoten, Senei, Kaiten Ogi. Your basic Kenki economy has been increased while overall kenki costs have been reduced (Big hits are 25 instead of 50) - Any Hakaze combo line generates 20 for Kaiten (Where as prior Yukikaze was 15 total, instead of 5 + 15), and you've already been trained not to haphazardly shinten, or at least should have been, if you've been studying your blade from the Developers before we even move into player driven rotations.

All of this combined is frankly why the Kenki management argument kind of falls short - Because the Priority the player is taught compared to the priority we now have isn't really all that different. You just use the dump more. You didn't exactly have to think about Kenki management before, because both Developer and Player encouragement was against wanton Shinten dumps. That's the dissonance I think is causing the most unpleasant feeling with a long time Samurai player.

It's a change in the direct opposite of what they've been, not so subtlety, taught this entire time. You shouldn't be using Shinten this much - Not because it's wrong, but because that's what you were taught. According to the priority, it's the correct answer. It just doesn't feel right, the same way circling "C" for twenty questions in a row on a multiple choice test doesn't feel right.

Is it "Better"? No. Is it "Worse"? Eh, technically yeah. If we work on a 10 scale, then IMO Kaiten was something like a .5 of the value to Samurai. I think a new player can level Samurai right now and frankly won't see a hole, especially if they've tried anything else. It'd still be a relatively smooth and well made job. They don't have the prior experience clashing to create that dissonance.

[CelestiCer]

Oh, 100% :P

I personally have gotten over the toxicity and at this point just interpret it as unconscious support for our issue.

But I have to admit its hard to stop myself from pointing out how a post directly contradicts reality...

For me it's these frequent obvious troll posters, who clearly don't play Samurai nor care for the job or the game for that matter. Spamming illogical points and arguments to invalidate feedback from creditable sources of experienced players with sometimes years of experiences. Good Experienced players aren't Gods, but generally a good insight equal to say someone proficient at a profession.

Yet to disrespectfully act like they know a thing... like they are going to

• a Doctor telling them they diagnosed it wrong
• a Dentist telling them they don't know dental practices
• a Carpenter telling them how to actually handle Plywood
• a Chef, telling them how to actually braise meat
• a Mathematician, telling them 1+1=4.5 and a half eaten apple

Entitled opinions? fine... but without any experience to back anything up they said, with clear history that they indeed have no experiences... it just makes it look so damn dumb. That's what I find toxic.

All of this combined is frankly why the Kenki management argument kind of falls short - Because the Priority the player is taught compared to the priority we now have isn't really all that different.

Like this person, probably a decent player. SAM Main? probably not. Trying to invalidate what people find fun/intrigued/depth purely by reading our skills. Having to always have 20 Kenki for your major hits sounds quite easy on paper, Yes and numerous people keep saying that... " On Paper ".

In practice you will mess up, the punishment. Doing it right is the Reward, hence " Kenki Management ". Kaiten now removed means no punishment no reward no management. Plus not every fight is the same where Kaiten perfectly fits every fight at every moment. A good example for me is P3S where I try to figure out if I can slidecast Midare and fitting Kaiten after Brand... and it feels amazing to dodge that explosion. There are countless moments like these where Kaiten barely fits and yet we manage to pull it off. This is now gone, less depth, brainless, zero management.

That's like me saying Reassemble should just be a passive. Am I talking out of my ass for saying that? Yes cause I don't play nor do I know anything about Machinist. And even if I read on paper what the skillkit of a job does, I have no experience with it.

Non-Samurai mains judging how it means nothing... and to manage nothing... on paper... if players genuine argument point to defend Kaiten removal meaning So Little, if it meant So Little to so many who don't main SAM? what is the big deal then to not have it return if it meant " So Little " to them when it meant " So much to others " ?

[Kabooa]

That's like me saying Reassemble should just be a passive. I have no experience with it.

You have enough general play experience to look at a skill, how it's intended to be used, and make an assumption on it.

This is because the difference between the various jobs are not so steep that it prevents experience from one translating to another. I know that you know exactly what Reassemble should be used for, and I know this without having to know whether or not you have ever touched the job.