Leveling/playing DPS is actively punished

[Ransu]

If only trust npc's were not complete trash that can't aoe and also completly stops attacking after avoiding aoe.

It's like that on purpose...they dont want the trusts to be better than playing with players. I'd they made trusts better people would just stop queuing normally. Trusts are just there for story players.

[Ceridwen]

You CAN pull several mobs with the trusts, but they are slower, yes. I got quite good at it - you have to use your own tactics, and it's different. They're also more peaceful and I like them quite a bit. If you build up your squad, and have one arcanist, it can be better than most pre-50 player groups. I don't like that as much - you have to just stand there and direct them, and that's not fun, but it's not slow.

But there are more DPS jobs, more people playing those, so - what else would be the outcome? It's not being punished if you pick the most popular thing, & have to deal with the reality that a lot of others are doing it, too.

I got all mine to 90, and it wasn't THAT bad. I queued while working on the weekly fate challenge & doing beast tribes. (the ARR and Heavensward ones are useless, honestly - I wish they'd give them some notable xp buffs.) I'd queue with healers for 2 & get the duty challenge on the dps. I'd do a one a day pvp (and no more, because I'm not a fan) I'm doing the same on my bunny alt now.

[Stasya]

It's like that on purpose...thru sont want the trusts to be better than playing with players. I'd they made trusts better people would just stop queuing normally. Trusts are just there for story players.

It's essentially waste of time, no matter how hard you press your aoe rotation it will be better just afk for 40+ minutes and do something irl than playing with bots. Its funny how they waste recources for that.

And you know they can adjust aoe potencies/will they use cds or not but naaah lets make trust npc literally afk waiting while enemy will cast aoe.

Story players? i have met many first timers while leveling alt and im not 90 yet

[Ransu]

It's essentially waste of time, no matter how hard you press your aoe rotation it will be better just afk for 40+ minutes and do something irl than playing with bots. Its funny how they waste recources for that.

And you know they can adjust aoe potencies/will they use cds or not but naaah lets make trust npc literally afk waiting while enemy will cast aoe.

Story players? i have met many first timers while leveling alt and im not 90 yet

You can call it whatever you want. Its only a few minutes slower than running with players, but the point is they are designed that way on purpose to complete dungeons within a certain time and to be slower than with players so that its not a better option than running with players. If you don't want to wait for the queue or don't want to play with others you have that option to do so, but its still a multiplayer game, thus obviously they have to balance it to favor player groups.

The trusts are perfectly fine the way they are. If you don't like it then queue with players.

[Kaedys]

My response to these types of threads is always the same. If you're frustrated at the queue length for DPS, pick up tanking or healing. If you don't want to do that, now you understand why the roulettes are nearly always waiting for tanks and/or healers. They already have the Adventurer In Need system to actively rewarded players for queuing as tanks and often as healers. If you refuse to go queue as a tank or healer despite the additional rewards, and despite your frustration with the DPS queues, well, you're part of the problem your idea is theoretically supposed to solve.

Thing is, there's a subset of players that simply enjoy tanking, and a subset that enjoy healing. Then there's a larger pair of subsets that are willing to do it, but would prefer to DPS. The lower the DPS queue time, the fewer of that second subset actually queue as tanks and heals. You could dial dungeons up to 3 DPS, or probably even 4, and you'd still see the similar results, because as the DPS queues go down, the supply of tanks and healers drops too as more players shift back to playing their preferred DPS job.

And specifically for leveling, trust/duty support is a very strong option. Yes, the NPCs do not AoE, and yes, they'll just stand there waiting for hostile AoE to go off rather than DPSing from their moved position, but the runs take almost exactly 30 minutes and have no queue time. Player runs rarely take less than 20m, or 15m at the absolute minimum, so if your queue time is longer than ~10-15m, you're better off using a trust for that run, from a time efficiency perspective. Or running PotD/HoH or Bozja or FATEs or w/e. Or better yet, running FATEs while waiting for the queue.

[pympcakes]

That's more or less what I'm highlighting here. It doesn't change the supply vs demand

The demand is for dungeon DPS slots. Going from 2 to 3 would increase the supply by 50%. That other factors may limit the impact of this change does not negate that this would increase supply by 50%.

Consider an extreme where it takes 1,000,000 DPS players per 1 tank and 1 healer. Supply would far outstrip demand.

[Yeastyloins]

DPS will always be more popular, because it imposes less responsibility and underperforming in it is less obvious (unless you parse).

All DPS have to do is dish out damage, hopefully not stand in stupid, and occasionally do a mechanic. And there is always another DPS to blame when a DPS check fails.

Tanks have to do everything the DPS do and manage the mobs.
Healers have to do everything the DPS do and heal people.
Most often there's only one of each, and when either screws up, it's usually obvious.

As a result, there's less stress when playing a DPS, so of course more people gravitate to DPS. This is inherent in the roles, so it isn't going to change.

As compensation, however, it's been my experience that DPS classes clear solo content (e.g., FATEs, solo duties) faster.
Perhaps over time that compensates for the longer queue times, perhaps not.

This. This is especially compounded by the fact that you can actively hit maybe like a 1/10th of your buttons and you will still clear the dungeon as a DPS since there is no in-game means to tell if a DPS is doing their job other than the wildly inaccurate metric of "the boss is taking longer to die". The only way you can really tell is having to use a 3rd party addon which shows something is wrong with the game design in my opinion. DPS is a role you can sandbag and clear content and progress the MSQ, whereas healers and tanks don't have that luxury. It's even worse for healers given that healing isn't that strenuous unless you have a tank pulling 4 packs and popping no mit.

[Yeastyloins]

My response to these types of threads is always the same. If you're frustrated at the queue length for DPS, pick up tanking or healing. If you don't want to do that, now you understand why the roulettes are nearly always waiting for tanks and/or healers. They already have the Adventurer In Need system to actively rewarded players for queuing as tanks and often as healers. If you refuse to go queue as a tank or healer despite the additional rewards, and despite your frustration with the DPS queues, well, you're part of the problem your idea is theoretically supposed to solve.

Thing is, there's a subset of players that simply enjoy tanking, and a subset that enjoy healing. Then there's a larger pair of subsets that are willing to do it, but would prefer to DPS. The lower the DPS queue time, the fewer of that second subset actually queue as tanks and heals. You could dial dungeons up to 3 DPS, or probably even 4, and you'd still see the similar results, because as the DPS queues go down, the supply of tanks and healers drops too as more players shift back to playing their preferred DPS job.

And specifically for leveling, trust/duty support is a very strong option. Yes, the NPCs do not AoE, and yes, they'll just stand there waiting for hostile AoE to go off rather than DPSing from their moved position, but the runs take almost exactly 30 minutes and have no queue time. Player runs rarely take less than 20m, or 15m at the absolute minimum, so if your queue time is longer than ~10-15m, you're better off using a trust for that run, from a time efficiency perspective. Or running PotD/HoH or Bozja or FATEs or w/e. Or better yet, running FATEs while waiting for the queue.

I get your point but I will point out that other MMOs have this problem, they also have strong viable options to level outside of group content. Fates and having to no life-deep dungeons are deff not that.

Right now I'm leveling WHM alongside both WAR and DRK at the moment. I'm also trying to level NIN too, and it makes me not want to even try to level NIN since queue times are so long. So should I just never level my NIN or any other DPS job then by your logic?

A better means of incentivizing players would be if they completed the Adventure in Need requirement, they would be able to requeue it again as a DPS and get an EXP bonus. That way players would be more incentivized to play healer and tank roles but still give a viable option to level their DPS jobs. You will never get rid of the scarcity of non-DPS roles but incentivizing players nonetheless would go a long way.

[AnotherPerson]

The demand is for dungeon DPS slots. Going from 2 to 3 would increase the supply by 50%. That other factors may limit the impact of this change does not negate that this would increase supply by 50%.

Consider an extreme where it takes 1,000,000 DPS players per 1 tank and 1 healer. Supply would far outstrip demand.

Ah, but you see, that would mean there has to be less players who queues in as healers/tanks just to get a quick daily in for that to work. That's because most of the people who now play healers and tanks aren't actually healer or tank mains, but rather DPS but also just want a fast roulette done without waiting for a long time in queue. They're just there for the tomes or mount rewards, not healer or tank mains.

However, if DPS queues suddenly get shorter, they'll jump back to the DPS line, thereby not affecting the supply at all -- because ultimately the supply for healers/tanks go down while DPS goes up.

So rather than having 15 players:
5 tanks, 5 healers, 10 DPS ==> 5 teams.

You end up having:
3 tanks, 3 healers, 14 DPS ==> 3 teams and 5 displaced DPS.

Then, DPS gets impatient, which results in:
4 tanks, 4 healers, 12 DPS ==> 4 teams

So no, that doesn't increase supply. It just moves the total numbers of healers to tanks around, but the ratio stays the same.

[Curisu]

Ah, a problem as old as Dungeons in MMOs.
Just get a friend who wants to level a healer/tank and you get your insta invites as a DPS.

Also, the wait time for a dps is not really that long and in case of trails, alliance raids and normal raids often even shorter then tank and healer queues.

That's why I level my DPS classes by doing these and choose tank healer for the leveling and 50/60/70/80 roulettes.

Or, do something else while waiting.
Normal quests, fates, glamour, RP, crafting, collecting, beast tribes, etc.
When you play smart you will have no wait time.