Scholar is a horribly designed job and shows zero thought goes into healer design

[Katish]

Yuna is a Summoner, not a White Mage....really? I used Yuna in particular because in lore she is addressed as a WHITE MAGE no assumptions needed...She's both a summoner AND white mage, not just a white mage, not just a summoner, BOTH. If you disregard combinations you disregard most in the series.

[Faidid]

SCH was ruined after 4.0 and at this point I don't think it'll ever be close to what it once was again. Sad really, it used to be very fun and effective with a pretty high ceiling for those interested in mastering optimized play. Now it's just spamming 1 button more than half the time like other "healers." I hate it.

[Renathras]

Yuna is a Summoner, not a White Mage....really? I used Yuna in particular because in lore she is addressed as a WHITE MAGE no assumptions needed...She's both a summoner AND white mage, not just a white mage, not just a summoner, BOTH.

Can you provide a link to what scene in the game she is addressed as a White Mage?

The iconic scene I remember is when she comes out of the first temple thing with the iconic line "I've...done it...! I have...become...a summoner!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgzwY69_vfM (Final Fantasy X HD Remaster - Yuna becomes a Summoner)

Can you point to any point in the game she is referred, in lore, as a "WHITE MAGE"? She, in lore, is JUST a Summoner. I don't think she uses any White Magic in any cutscenes, but she absolutely uses Summons. And the Sphere Grid is openended, meaning it isn't the best tool to use (not to mention the White Mage Haste and Slow spells are in Tidus' part of the Grid and Kimari can go anywhere). But yeah, where in FFX is Yuna referred to as "White Mage"?

[Katish]

Can you provide a link to what scene in the game she is addressed as a White Mage?

The iconic scene I remember is when she comes out of the first temple thing with the iconic line "I've...done it...! I have...become...a summoner!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgzwY69_vfM (Final Fantasy X HD Remaster - Yuna becomes a Summoner)

Can you point to any point in the game she is referred, in lore, as a "WHITE MAGE"? She, in lore, is JUST a Summoner. I don't think she uses any White Magic in any cutscenes, but she absolutely uses Summons. And the Sphere Grid is openended, meaning it isn't the best tool to use (not to mention the White Mage Haste and Slow spells are in Tidus' part of the Grid and Kimari can go anywhere). But yeah, where in FFX is Yuna referred to as "White Mage"?

You are quoting the obvious that she is a summoner which I never said she wasn't and for the white mage portion I think it's brought up by Wakka very subtly which would make it hard to find. I'll do another play through when I have time and link what I find later down (but I have a backlog). Even still it doesn't change the fact her tree is deeply integrated with white magic at the start. Especially more so, when you look at her unique ability pray. The identity of white mage is there, and although she doesn't inherit haste initially (she can later)...Again white magic and the identity of white mage is integrated with additional design that's what makes it superfluous. You may agree to disagree but it doesn't change the facts. 14 doesn't have anything like that so it has only the bare bones. And mmo scenario that doesn't require healing the backbones of whm or any healer isn't enough to prop the classes up when again the downtime is so harsh. You may like the current design but it's not objectively good design as the optimal rotation is one button press and that's it. If you're healing and making a "job" off it in this game you're probably burdening the group for what could be DPS and that's not always a bad thing, there are always going to be players that are subpar at their job that's just what it is. Also refrain from saying "some people" or a "majority" it just showcases fallacy or some sort of bias. Argumentum ad populum

[AmiableApkallu]

WHM in its current state is like many other WHMs in the series. If anything, it's far more offensive.

*snip*

It actually stacks up pretty well against any of the WHMs in the single player games...

So, I can't speak to all of the single-player games in the series, but you missed the point: You're comparing apples to fish because the single-player games have entirely different combat and encounter models from FFXIV. Each game has a different answer to, "What is a white mage (healer)?" because each game has different systems and stories that the job needs to slot into. And what matters is whether each game provides a satisfactory answer in its own context.

[Recon1o6]

All of the ffx characters are multijob in their base trees except for lulu whose a straight up blm.

Rikku is a thief/chemist
Yuna while has the summons is more a white mage in gameplay if you dont use the aeons. She gets esuna, nul elements, holy, pray, cure series, autolife etc
Wakka is a weird archer/green mage with a gambler overdrive
Tidus closely fits time mage and warrior classes but with a focus on speed/evasion over defence
Auron is a samurai/paladin without the magic
Kimhari is blue mage, he can fill any role in the party once you get him moving. Its just his start position on the standard sphere grid sucks. Advanced grid he's a gamebreaker.

[Elucesta]

I think some if you nay be derailing the thread probably

[Renathras]

...

I don't doubt you believe Yuna is an example of a White Mage, but until you can find an actual quote from the game, I don't think "because in lore she is addressed as a WHITE MAGE no assumptions needed" is at all accurate nor that she should be considered a White Mage, especially since any of the characters in the game can pick up her skills eventually.

And, again, I gave you lists of the other explicit White Mages in the game's history, you can't just ignore that. Even if we point out Eiko (not Garnet) is a bit more White Mage, Eiko and Garnet are from the Village of Summoners, not the Village of White Mages, so they're both technically Summoners as well. "the facts" are that FFXIV is pretty true to the Final Fantasy lore White Mage, and more strictly accurate as a representative of it than the Summoner-hybrids, not all of which even WERE White Mages (Rydia from FF4 being a Summoner+Black Mage)

FF11 is an apples-to-apples comparison, as it is also a MMO, and in it, WHM is almost exclusively healing/buffing in party content, rarely using any damage spells.

It may not be objectively good design, but it's not objectively BAD design, either. I played Holy Paladin in Burning Crusade WoW, and its DPS rotation was literally one button, Judgement. This isn't exactly uncommon.

"some people" isn't a fallacy of appealing to a majority (some is not most; "most people" would be said fallacy, which is why I avoid saying it, something not true of everyone in this forum who often invoke that they're speaking for the majority)

So, I can't speak to all of the single-player games in the series, but you missed the point: You're comparing apples to fish because the single-player games have entirely different combat and encounter models from FFXIV. Each game has a different answer to, "What is a white mage (healer)?" because each game has different systems and stories that the job needs to slot into. And what matters is whether each game provides a satisfactory answer in its own context.

This would be true if I hadn't mentioned FF11, which is an MMO... In fact, FF11's WHM to FF14's WHM is the most apples-to-apples comparison we could look for.

Kimhari is blue mage, he can fill any role in the party once you get him moving. Its just his start position on the standard sphere grid sucks. Advanced grid he's a gamebreaker.

Kimhari's starting point can probably best be thought of as Red Mage, I think. His special abilities are absolutely Blue Mage, yeah, but his grid places him within close reach of White and Black Magics, even if it still kinda sucks.

I think some if you nay be derailing the thread probably

lol, fair enough.

[AmiableApkallu]

This would be true if I hadn't mentioned FF11, which is an MMO... In fact, FF11's WHM to FF14's WHM is the most apples-to-apples comparison we could look for.

And once again, in your quest to be legalistic pedant, you've missed the point: what matters is whether each game provides a satisfactory answer in its own context.

Instead of addressing that, you're... stuck on how FFXI is an apple, and how FFXIV is another apple, while ignoring the fact you yourself spent a lot of words talking about the fish that are FF3, FF4, FF5, FF7, FFTA, all while glossing over your own position that "some spin offs and XI (where RDM did it better) aren't exactly the best cases."

The same with this legalistic pedanticism over FFX's Yuna. I played that game ~20 years ago. Yuna might not literally be called a White Mage, but if you're coming from FF1 and FF4, she obviously fills the same role. Her starting section of the sphere grid is obviously inspired by white mage. She's one of, if not the only, characters who's naturally set up to learn Holy, an archetypal white mage skill. The story required her to be a summoner; her game play slotted her as a white mage. The fact that you can blur over all these distinctions at the end game is the exception that proves the point.

[Osmond]

You know SCH is a horrible job when Yuna outshines it.