New Missaphenchair video makes great point about the direction of job design

[Nizzi]

They aren't totally off the mark. A lot of the jobs, tank and healers specifically, are really carbon copies of their job role. For example, All healers deal with a "3 resource" system, i.e. 3 lilies, 3 aetherflow, 3 cards, 3 addersgal. Don't forget they each have the same dps buttons. The tanks all have the same enmity trait and tank stance. In addition to same 30% def cd and access to rampart. While each job does have its quirks to make them unique in a sense, all the jobs within the roles for tank and healers play about the same. It's not long before the "feel" of the jobs starts to feel the same and that's where you start getting issues with gameplay depth.

Good or bad its up you to decide. Personally, while I prefer the 2.0-4.1 design I cannot deny that 5.0+ homogenizing of jobs has introduced more ppl into the game and has benefitted FFXIV as a whole (though that could also be timing with current market optics on other games in the same genre). Ultimately, making the game easier removes the aspect of learning. If you don't learn, you don't improve.

I honestly do not believe that the 5.0+ and onward homogenization and simplification of jobs has made people join the game. It seems a bit ludicrous to imagine someone thinking "hmm, they made all 3 healers have the exact same playstyle for 80% of their casts? Awesome, I love 1 button spam! Time to finally play FFXIV, I'm glad they got rid of all those things preventing me from playing the game!"
Rather, I think the story and all of the other positive aspects of the game are the reason it grew. ShB's story being incredible well received and considered by a lot to be "the best FF we've gotten in 15 years", Nier collabs (I know a friend who started playing because of this), the pandemic making people stuck at home with nothing to do, and then what happened with WoW last year. I think XIV is doing well despite its more abysmal job design decisions, not because of them.

[Neoyoshi]

Where was this energy years ago when they made drastic changes to jobs back then?

[Nizzi]

Where was this energy years ago when they made drastic changes to jobs back then?

A lot of people seemed to believe there was an actual vision for these job changes that we'd be seeing in Endwalker, and so were otherwise content to just say "wait until 6.0 for job changes." Endwalker being ShB 2.0 has really shown a lot of people that the "vision" was one of mediocrity and neglect.

[Lyth]

Most job homogenization is driven by player demand, unfortunately. The instant you introduce something cool and unique on a job, other players in the same role will be petitioning to see the same feature ported over to their main jobs the following expansion. It's the nature of competition.

[VentVanitas]

I honestly do not believe that the 5.0+ and onward homogenization and simplification of jobs has made people join the game. It seems a bit ludicrous to imagine someone thinking "hmm, they made all 3 healers have the exact same playstyle for 80% of their casts? Awesome, I love 1 button spam! Time to finally play FFXIV, I'm glad they got rid of all those things preventing me from playing the game!"
Rather, I think the story and all of the other positive aspects of the game are the reason it grew. ShB's story being incredible well received and considered by a lot to be "the best FF we've gotten in 15 years", Nier collabs (I know a friend who started playing because of this), the pandemic making people stuck at home with nothing to do, and then what happened with WoW last year. I think XIV is doing well despite its more abysmal job design decisions, not because of them.

The simplicity of the combat certainly wasn't what brought me to the game back in Stormblood- if anything it was the potential for how unique jobs could be with a system that allows you to freely swap between them. Nowadays it feels like PvE gameplay is treated as a nuisance that's just in the way of the MSQ. Can't get new players without inane streamer reaction content I suppose.

[CelestiCer]

The simplicity of the combat certainly wasn't what brought me to the game back in Stormblood- if anything it was the potential for how unique jobs could be with a system that allows you to freely swap between them. Nowadays it feels like PvE gameplay is treated as a nuisance that's just in the way of the MSQ. Can't get new players without inane streamer reaction content I suppose.

I was drawn to FFXIV due to it being PvE focused. Having played multiple PvP mmo's, I have had my fill with it's Excessive hardcore / hearing shouting Shotcalls / P2W / Korean-grindstyle experiences etc, I wanted something different. FFXIV definitely delivered a different type of fun.

The Story hooked me at 1st, but after the story ended it's like a book that finished. I am not going to re-read a book 100.000 times... something else has to keep my attention, which was the enjoyment of a particular job I came to love, " Samurai ".

I'd spam Dungeons, Fates, Extreme's, Raids just purely cause it was that fun with my Samurai. Passing gear, Passing loot, helping get mounts, help get people glamour from the Ghimlyt Dark once again why not. Or farm that Triple Triad Card, the Orchestrion scrolls from the Eden fights Lets go! I had so much fun doing it simply cause I get to play Samurai. That's it.

That's ruined now... nothing is interesting by simplifying the combat. I don't feel like doing anything, because it isn't fun anymore to me. And knowing I used to have so much fun, compared to now... due to simplifications is utterly stupid. The only reasons I am still here is housing and friends, glorified chatbox of which is littered with RMT shouts and DM's, not the job design anymore or the combat that actually was what was fun to me. Whatever their Job design direction is? it has got to stop going towards simplifications.

[YellowLine]

All I know is this: The upcoming Live Letter on the 1st of July is going to decide whether or not I stick with this game. If what they say during the Job change section makes it clear that they're just going to keep stripping away all the cool stuff (IE: Kaiten, Seigan, alternating AoE shapes AKA: AoE positonals) for the sake of keeping things "simple" (Read: Boring and easy to digest), then I'm unsubbing for good. Because by that point, it will be abundantly clear to me that they just plain DON'T CARE about the opinion of players who believe the game's combat is becoming too shallow (which they already sort of stated in the LL right before Endwalker launch, now that I think about it).

If they want to just turn this game into a TV show with RP venues and mind-numbing "combat" sprinkled in, then I might as well just get a crunchyroll subscription or something. Because why pay a monthly subscription for one anime when I can pay a sub (or just pirate) for hundreds?

I suggest others who are unsatisfied with the game's direction unsub as well. Not because we're "voting with our wallets", but because it's in your best interest for staying happy. I genuinely can't see this game's community coming together to organize a mass-unsubbing just because the game's combat is getting bland. Since, unfortunately, people who hopped on this train for the combat seem to be in the minority. At least that's how it is from my perspective. People who aren't SAM mains act like I'm crazy, flame me, or just respond with dead air whenever I express my discontent with the 6.1 changes. I was once told that I shouldn't complain because "You Samurai's still get your big damage and top DPS". Wow, cool, I don't care. I would trade my top DPS for Kaiten in a heartbeat, even if they nerfed us down to Ranged Physical levels of damage. That's how little I care about my place in the meta. So yeah, unsub for your sanity once it becomes clear that things won't get better.

[butchersblock]

All I know is this: The upcoming Live Letter on the 1st of July is going to decide whether or not I stick with this game. If what they say during the Job change section makes it clear that they're just going to keep stripping away all the cool stuff (IE: Kaiten, Seigan, alternating AoE shapes AKA: AoE positonals) for the sake of keeping things "simple" (Read: Boring and easy to digest), then I'm unsubbing for good. Because by that point, it will be abundantly clear to me that they just plain DON'T CARE about the opinion of players who believe the game's combat is becoming too shallow (which they already sort of stated in the LL right before Endwalker launch, now that I think about it).

If they want to just turn this game into a TV show with RP venues and mind-numbing "combat" sprinkled in, then I might as well just get a crunchyroll subscription or something. Because why pay a monthly subscription for one anime when I can pay a sub (or just pirate) for hundreds?

I suggest others who are unsatisfied with the game's direction unsub as well. Not because we're "voting with our wallets", but because it's in your best interest for staying happy. I genuinely can't see this game's community coming together to organize a mass-unsubbing just because the game's combat is getting bland. Since, unfortunately, people who hopped on this train for the combat seem to be in the minority. At least that's how it is from my perspective. People who aren't SAM mains act like I'm crazy, flame me, or just respond with dead air whenever I express my discontent with the 6.1 changes. I was once told that I shouldn't complain because "You Samurai's still get your big damage and top DPS". Wow, cool, I don't care. I would trade my top DPS for Kaiten in a heartbeat, even if they nerfed us down to Ranged Physical levels of damage. That's how little I care about my place in the meta. So yeah, unsub for your sanity once it becomes clear that things won't get better.

Around the same for me, though I'd like to see the direction for NIN in the Live Letter as well to see if maybe at least that one's an improvement. I don't have much hope that the next savage tier will be any better so pretty much the only thing keeping me around is DSR reclears to not screw over static members

[Quor]

Where was this energy years ago when they made drastic changes to jobs back then?

It's a complex answer. For myself, I had faith in the team after having seen the game from the perspective of a 1.0 beta player until the (at the time) present day. WHM was in a bad spot and AST wasn't much better, albeit guaranteed a slot in any serious group due to Spread Balance. Both were overshadowed by SCH which - while fun - was absolutely OP. So much healing, so much capability for damage and so much utility all rolled into one. It had to be toned down, as WHM was effectively locked out of non-friend-focused groups in SB, even after SB saw SCH being toned down a little. So in the spirit of understanding job balance, I supported the SCH changes (and still do).

But then they went full homogenization with ShB and it was like the finger of the monkey's paw curling. "Not like this!" I said, clutching my head.

The same kinda goes for tanks; WAR was so dominant for HW and SB but it at least required some decent personal skill to do correctly, as well as team work to manage aggro. That kinda stuff was fun for me as a tank. The current braindead "tank stance on, aggro is mine" approach sucks Thal's balls, to say nothing of rotational issues that tanks suffer from. The idea there I THINK was to introduce tank complexity via the fights themselves. And that would have been fine if shit like positioning, aggro management and fight knowledge mattered in anything less than savage content. Two out of three Endwalker trial bosses cannot be moved in any way while the third re-center's herself constantly. P3S and P4S both have elements of proper positioning, both of the bosses and the tanks/players themselves, but the fact that you have to go into a savage raid to get that kind of experience is just disgusting. I'm not saying there needs to be that kind of difficulty in a 4-man, but I'd like there to be at least something! You don't even need to turn most bosses away from the party anymore. The only place where you can feel rewarded for doing tank stuff nowadays is in the top-end of savage content, and that's not ok.

I once believed a similar thing would happen for healers, that SE would provide fights that actually needed healers to utilize their entire healing kit instead of just being glorified green dps, but that clearly hasn't happened outside of savage either.

Ok, so I was wrong. Faith shattered, lesson learned. Time to change course and start introducing actual rotational complexity to tanks and healers. This will have the side effect of making MSQ stuff far less boring too, since the core kit of tanks and healers will actually be interesting in and of itself. Getting all tanks to the level of GNB or burst-phase DRK in terms of rotational challenge would be a start, while all healers could stand to be somewhere between current BLM and old SMN, but dumbed down a bit with the assumption that at least some of the GCD's will be heals. To be clear, I don't want WAR and PLD to be clones of DRK and GNB, but rather I want the same level of mental engagement at a minimum. I don't expect tanks to be where a player goes for massive rotational skill expression, but there needs to be at least some height to the ceiling. Likewise, if a player wants full caster dps skill expression then I don't think healers should be the job for that but the skill floor also doesn't need to be in the fucking basement.

[Hezhi]

but that clearly hasn't happened outside of savage either.

It happens in savage too. And in ultimate. An AST solo healed DSR and was still glaring half the time.
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV15Y411T74m