In a game with E8S why is SE banning people with suggestive Adventurer Plates?

[Shiazirah]

SE’s. The line is SE’s. And they’ve made it clear what not to do. Nobody cares what your line is, or mine for that matter. In case the ToS isn’t clear enough for you, I’ll simplify it: (this applies to everything btw, not just these plates)

Don’t make something that A) could be easily misunderstood by a random person, to where B) they might report it, which is then C) checked into by a GM, who then D) agrees with the report that your action/thing/whatever is questionable and then E) takes action by banning/suspending/giving you a warning strike.

ahhhh yeah.... still objective what a GM will think about it, if its a polish or a german or a japanese one, maybe...

and so is still the question: why allow SE the camera to go in such angles? they could easy limit it for the plates, why wasnt they doing it? Everyone knows, if something is possible someone gonna try out, so why not avoid such behavior by technical limitations on first place? Then would it not be necessary at all to check about complaints because noone could do pictures which may offend others/would be against TOS.
Why isnt SE doing it to avoid it??

[Vryn]

I don't think you understand how this industry works. The rating system and rules and what is or isn't allowed according to various countries is not up to the court of public opinion. I do know exactly what the devs are thinking in this regard because the ToS and their stance has been crystal clear. A profanity filter is not a free pass to use profanity- you can still be banned for it.

"But I wanna take a close up of my crotch because I can", and really anything that is based on "because I can" is a stupid reason, at best.

There's really nothing more I can add to this other than: play stupid games win stupid prizes.

You don't know what the devs are thinking because you are not a developer on the FF14 team. Just because the ToS in its current state may not allow for something does not mean anything when it comes to creating solutions that impact the everyday user experience for the majority of the game and the protection of some. Their stance has always been we have created a highly exploitable system. If you do things we don't like by maximising our system, we will ban you, which doesn't solve the issue and leads to a vague ToS, which can be highly criticised. You are like a person who reads the bible and starts to call themselves a prophet who knows the will of God.

If a profanity filter is there, it's meant to protect people who want to swear and those who don't. It's not the wrong thing to do, and it's a measured response to an issue. More solutions and options for the protection of players are always reasonable in every system because when it comes to fixing a problem with a system, it takes many forms, not just one magic bandage.

"I can" isn't the reason. The reason is that everyone will, and yes, that means even people who don't like to swear and you. They would have to ban the entire community for cursing and profanity at one point in the game life cycle. This doesn't remove the behaviour because you can't. Instead, it drives it underground and more people away from the game, and no, you are not the one who gets to decide if someone is suitable to play the game.

Your attitude creates a world of lazy development and highly exploitable systems, which lead to lazy solutions that damage the overall user experience rather than help. An excellent example of this is the chat function in crystal conflict. The chat function in CC does have many advantages over a normal chat function, such as a faster response time, especially for players who may not have a keyboard or are on a PlayStation or have social anxiety issues. All are good things when increasing the conversation within the game and deepening the community's social fabric. However, it is a vastly inferior system for players on the keyboard, which is also a large portion of the community. We found ourselves creating overly proportional punishments for the fear that someone could be seen to be mean or highly passive-aggressive rather than creating solutions that target why people might be mean or highly passive-aggressive.

For example:
The reason people are highly passive-aggressive in CC is that the gameplay model lends itself well to repeat losses, and yes, while the mode may be quick if you lose 4-10 times, that doesn't feel very good. Also, you rely on absolute strangers because you cannot enter with your friend(s), which should always be encouraged in an MMORPG and people of your skill level. Then there is class balance in CC, the disparity between good and bad classes is enormous, and the current patch notes do not address many of the game's major flaws. Yes, while the developers may have a vision, that vision does not matter as long as it leads to an unsatisfactory gaming experience, i.e. the polymorph of a white mage not being able to be dispelled. Many of the issues with class balance are mechanical and do not revolve around potency buffs or debuffs. Some need rework because they are of unsatisfactory quality compared to other classes. Next to being the reward structure of the model itself, it's barren. The only good rewards are at the end of the season pass, making players feel like they need to play, making the system have more FOMO for cosmetic rewards. Even though you may be able to collect it later on, it needs to have more prizes and consistent distribution to elevate the feel of a loss. They also need to allow for more rewarding rewards. After all, that will lessen the feeling of a loss because many people don't care about their AP. The AP serves no practical function other than to tell random strangers who you are.

The system makes players feel like they are wasting their time with people they don't know or don't care about the match, which is awful if you do, and your reward structure is being handicapped by these people, which is worse than someone being toxic in chat by spamming good game three times. They need to allow for a casual queue for more than one person so you can play with your friends. They also need to enable people to talk with a keyboard because removing the ability for people to do so in the fear that they could be mean instantly makes people want to be mean because they have just lost a vital component of communication. All this will do is lead to players joining matches and leaving because they can do other things with that 30 minutes than waste 4-5 with you. After all, the team doesn't have a tank/ healer, or you are deficient in that person's eyes.

Censorship from things others may not want or don't like to hear is never a solution to an issue. More speech and options for customising the game for your own player experience to maximise your enjoyment is always the better option. Yes, that requires a lot more work than a ban hammer but leads to a better game because the cost of shutting down innocent players or players who may just be having a bad day is far worse to the game's overall health than shutting down the 5% of people who might use it to troll you.

If they are trolling you, then block them. You have the tools to do so. Though I think you don't want this in-game, you don't want to take personal responsibility for your prudishness and use them.

[kaynide]

I mean, whether I am a dev or not doesn’t change that the devs have said explicitly not to make sexually suggestive images. Moreover it’s not on me to teach you how to extrapolate the devs position by both their written ToS and actions they have taken in the game.

I mean you guys can keep rationalizing it all day, but even the GMs have rules they follow and common sense they work with.

I don’t care if you don’t like the rules. By all means, feel free to break them. And if and when you get banned, don’t expect a pity party here.

Taking sexually suggestive pictures or doing compromising poses is not “maximizing the use of the system”. Good luck with that defense.

[Vryn]

I mean you guys can keep rationalising it all day, but even the GMs have rules they follow and common sense they work with.

I don’t care if you don’t like the rules. By all means, feel free to break them. And if and when you get banned, don’t expect a pity party here.

Taking sexually suggestive pictures or compromising poses is not “maximising the use of the system”. Good luck with that defence.

I did it above, and you just proved the point. Good luck trying to rationalise censorship and authoritarian control that destroys the social fabric and quality of the game. Yoshi P himself said an MMO is like running a country, and how many successful Dictatorships do you see where the people are living happy lives?

[Amenara]

I mean you guys can keep rationalizing it all day, but even the GMs have rules they follow and common sense they work with.

The problem is that the "common sense" can lead to subjective enforcement of the rules. With something like this where there is an infinite set of scenarios that you can find yourself in where you have to make a determination whether it is right or not and depending on who is looking at it they may have a different interpretation of it. I think the easiest solution is make it something you have to opt into to see the adventure plates in pvp with a warning about it not being moderated so you know what you are getting into before you even get into it.

[kaynide]

I mean the rules are, as I said before, quite clear.

If you think “don’t post sexual pictures” equals authoritarian behavior, I can only LOL at you.

Good luck, I can’t help you.

[kaynide]

The problem is that the "common sense" can lead to subjective enforcement of the rules. With something like this where there is an infinite set of scenarios that you can find yourself in where you have to make a determination whether it is right or not and depending on who is looking at it they may have a different interpretation of it. I think the easiest solution is make it something you have to opt into to see the adventure plates in pvp with a warning about it not being moderated so you know what you are getting into before you even get into it.

Not really necessary. It’s pretty simple. We aren’t talking about innocent pictures of people posing innocently in a bikini.

[Vryn]

I mean, the rules are quite clear as I said before.

If you think “don’t post sexual pictures” equals authoritarian behaviour, I can only LOL at you.

Good luck, I can’t help you.

If they were clear and everyone was happy, we wouldn't have this conversation and the fact that we are shows something is wrong for people. The rules aren't that clear, and many cross the line. Some would say your civil liberties, such as being able to ban you from the service for saying things outside of the service.

You may not have an issue, but many do, so play the game and allow others to give their feedback, or do you have a conflicting interest if so please do tell?

[kaynide]

This isn’t a conversation. It’s “I wanna take sexual inappropriate pictures because the game allows it to happen even though the rules are clear that you shouldn’t”. And a bit of you trying to deflect with weird questions and examples…or trying insinuate I have a SeCrET CoNfLiCt Of InTeReSt oR AgEnDa.

[Vryn]

This isn’t a conversation. It’s “I wanna take sexual inappropriate pictures because the game allows it to happen even though the rules are clear that you shouldn’t”. And a bit of you trying to deflect with weird questions and examples…or trying insinuate I have a SeCrET CoNfLiCt Of InTeReSt oR AgEnDa.

We are having this conversation now, and you've mischaracterised the conversation. First, the talk is about the rules in place and are they proportionate to the situation as a response. Then there is the point of developers creating issues that need to be solved and releasing systems too early. Thirdly, community cohesion is argued because this is a more significant issue than adventurer plates.

No one is saying you have a secret conflict or plan. That's you being hyperbolic and just saying the rules are the rules doesn't do anything because the ToS may not be fit for purpose and may negatively affect the health of the game, which is argued regularly. You have the right to disagree with them as a paying customer and a stakeholder in the product. Your argument, however, brings nothing to the conversation, and if you bring nothing to the conversation, why are you here? Please do have a conflict of interest so we can discuss that conflict and how it reacts to these issues, as that is what we are meant to do on the forums.

You can argue that the ToS is fit for purpose, but that would require an in-depth review by you of the ToS or at least bringing up surface level benefits of the ToS, but you don't even try so again. So my question is, why are you here?

The point of this conversation, after all, is trying to maximise the benefits of the ToS in regards to game systems and social mechanisms to allow for greater freedom of expression in the player base, even though you may personally disagree or not want to see it.