Why telling people to unsub is a horrible defense of the game.

[Sigma5]

If people are naturally moving to unsub isn't that actually proving poor design. Mindless repetition is a common problem in most games and reskinning stack markers doesn't fix the core issues. They could make raids more complex than just dodging aoes and attacking for 2 hours plus, they could incorporate jumping puzzles or memory puzzles or use of mounts kind of like destiny 2.

[Allegor]

As far as I'm aware, Yoshi P stated he doesn't mind people unsubbing, taking breaks, and coming back whenever they want, which I'd at least say is a much healthier mindset than trying to trap people into playing for as long and often as possible to inflate engagement metrics.... but on the flip side, it also kinda lowkey implies he's expecting the people leaving to come back later, and that's a mindset the WoW dev team and playerbase were also very guilty of - "it's cyclical" "they'll all come back next expansion" "see you next patch" "it's normal during content drought" "the game's fine as is" "you think you want it, but you don't" ...over, and over, and over, and we can see where that lead to - the whole assault debacle wasn't 'the' reason for the bleeding subs, it was just the last straw for many people dealing with what was a sinking ship full of band-aids holding it together thus far.

Sure, you may call it a slippery slope from a paranoid ex-WoW player, but the parallels and red flags are definitely there.

[technole]

FFXIV has the luxury of instead of saying this game is not for you, this month's sub is not for you.

[VirusOnline]

1. The game is deliberately designed in a way that disincentivizes players from unsubbing.

...

Obviously, the game is far from the worst in this respect. Indeed it's probably one of the best MMOs at preventing FOMO. But that is a low bar since virtually all MMOs are predatory at some level.

Money needs to be made and if the stats are right, savage/ultimate raiders make up the smallest percentage of players.
You could therefore surmise that the team needs to come up with a way to make this type of content worthwhile from a financial perspective.
On the account of patch releases, the target population is casuals. Being able to attract them back to the game and keep them moderately satisfied is a good thing as it allows SE to rely more on the majority population.

2. The game's community has organically developed in a way that disincentivizes players from unsubbing.

...

You might think that that is not the developers' issue, but Blizzard understood that many players stay in the game because of network effects and switching costs (https://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2...iplayer-games/). The game is designed in many ways to keep you in the game not just with its content and gameplay, but also with how its systems encourage socialization, bonding, and the making of friendships.

However, that is not sufficient to save World of Warcraft, and this alone is not going to be sufficient to keep FF14 afloat. Players who care less about these network effects will quit first. When your friends return to the game less and less and you stop hearing back from friends from since Heavensward, you'll be less and less disincentivized to stay subbed in the game.

Indeed, the rise of Discord means that Square Enix needs to realize that one of the huge profit-making mechanism of MMOs, the social bonds that keep the players in the game, is weaker and weaker. Telling players to unsub is bad for the game because very frequently you are also telling players to abandon their friends, statics, and communities. Even if you keep up with each other on Discord, there's no guarantee that bond will hold if you don't have another video game that you play together.

This is normal socialization, which I wouldn't fault the community for.
Relate your steam library to a irl game arcade. If you stop going to the gaming arcade, any bonds made there will slowly dissolve.
Tying negative words like "abandon your friends, statics, and communities" is a bit dramatic, but these things happen irl as a result of life changes, interest changes, etc. Thus it's not so impossible to happen in such a social game like FFXIV.

3. Unsubbing does not address the issue with the lack of meaningful content in the game for veterans.

Many players want to stay in an MMO and not feel burnt out. I understand that new players, especially those who have only started in Shadowbringers, find a lot to do in the game. But many veterans do not. One of the most important reasons is because an overwhelming majority of this game's content simply do not have good replay value.

A huge part of raiding is to figure out mechanics and practice until you do the dance cleanly. Once you have done that, you will always use your GCD in this particular order, barring one or two changed GCDs depending on mechanics. You will always solve this mechanic in this particular way. You will almost always optimize your rotation in the exact same way. The only exception is Black Mage, which has enough RNG elements in high-end optimization (transpose lines) to keep it fresh and different each encounter. But for the rest of the jobs, you are either dealing with RNG that requires minimal thought (like DNC holding fans for bursts) or dealing with zero RNG at all.

Even in the most current Ultimate, I have already settled into a static rotation on GNB that I execute in the exact order every time, unless I fuck up.

This goes beyond raiding. Crafting has become so repetitive now because there is close to zero incentive in doing anything more than clicking on the same macros figured out by someone else for you. At the very least, HW crafting and SB's Whistle mechanics added depth to crafting and allowed a crafter to have fun manually crafting even on simple recipes by needing to use some thinking, since the procs are going to be different every time.

So when someone says that current crafting is "content" I do not understand what they mean, because it's a chore - once you figure out the optimal rotation that minimizes the number of steps for your melds, you are done. That takes 1 minute if you are lazy and just copy the rotation from someone else, and 10 minutes if you have any level of understanding of how to build crafting rotations. Clicking on macros for the rest of the time is not content for the vast majority of players.

I can go on and on about various other aspects of the game. For example, once you experienced a treasure hunt a few times, you have experienced all treasure hunts. There is little to no variation in treasure maps - they all have the same few gimmicks (like limit cut kill orders). Once you've seen all the gimmicks, you've seen them all.

Once you experienced a dungeon, you have experienced all Expert runs for that patch. You will be doing the same mechanics in the same order every time.

Unfortunately, replayable content in FF14 are mostly out of reach for most players. Solo HoH and PotD are highly replayable because different floor layouts, different pomander drops, and even different monster distribution can alter a run drastically and sometimes even mean an easy solo run or a failure.

Feast was also a highly replayable content at the top levels when people generally know what they're doing. You are facing players who have different personalities, have different tactics and strategies. Different matchups determine what strategy you should pursue - on healer, I have to decide whether to go hard and use more Glares or focus on healing to cover weaker Platinum players.

Unfortunately too many content in FF14 is one-and-done, like the MSQ, trials, raids, crafting, treasure maps, and so on. Telling players to do insane grinds like 2000 mentor roulettes is not helpful. This kind of grind is worse than anything in Lost Ark, a KMMO. The vast majority of players do not consider such grinds meaningful content nor are they compelled to do these types of content. Telling players to unsub is not helpful and does not solve the lack of replayability of the game. Caught between the two a lot of players find themselves burning through the content in a single week even when playing at a casual pace. Were it not for Ultimate, I would have personally already unsubbed once again because I experienced all the 6.1 content in a few days playing only 2-3 hours a day. The rest are grindy achievements which are not what anybody is asking for when they ask for more content in the game.

I don't think anyone is asking for a patch to literally fill up all four months of our time. That is insane. We're just asking for the game to maybe provide us with more than 10 hours of gameplay. Replayable content is the key in doing this but they have failed in most of them so far.

Yes, feature scope is a thing.
I highly suspect limited housing Island:Sanctuary will be one such thing.

Also, you want replayable content but have highly criticised savage and ultimate which are the replayable content for those minded people.
People have also criticised Eureka and Bozja and Deep Dungeons, DF.
The issue is replayability has been forcibly put to the most basal level (casual) i.e. crafting (which was once considered its own endgame) in order to probably hopefully retain its base consumers.

People also play this game at an astonishingly disturbing amount. It's also many people's main or even only game. It can be a drag for a veteran if this is their one and only game (oof).
Consumption upon patch releases are FOMO induced crazes which is by no means SE's fault imho, especially at the rate which they release patches and its content.
This also ties into the above for replayable savages. If there were no sense of weekly gates or currency limitations, it'd be a one and done deal for a few weeks.
And as all us PF people know the first week or 2 is the most crucial because after those first few weeks, PF becomes a storm of chaos. This is a common mindset that fuels PF FOMO and "one and done". You even said it "at the top levels when people generally know what they're doing". Though PvP is not the dance that PvE is.
Also, we're now in the 5th expansion. SE is probably asking itself "how much more can we add to this game until disorganisation becomes a large percent of the project?".

Setting a culture of lulls and breaks are not a bad thing.

4. Unsubbing does not address the issue with the lack of quality or dissatisfaction with the design philosophy of certain aspects of the game.

I'm sure it goes without saying but... telling players to unsub if they don't like healer design is even more nonsensical than telling players to unsub due to a content drought. Whereas you'll get new content if you come back to the game a year later, you are not going to really suddenly get a new healer design. If they intend on designing aspects of the game that are at odds with what you desire as a player, no amount of unsubbing is going to do anything. You will come back and face the exact same design and content that has previously dissatisfied you.

On the other hand, no game can provide everything for everyone.
Unsubbing may not be the answer, but feedback will do well enough and unsubbing is a form of financial feedback that SE can tangibly see.
It’s also what I suspect they’re preparing for as they start to realise that xiv can no longer be maintained or added upon because it becomes too financially and just developmentally too monstrous.

Although telling someone to unsub is highly demotivating and dumbh I think the real message is: ty for your feedback, now go play something that makes you feel fullfilled. What you want may or may not be addressed.


ps: this is me trying to see another perspective, personally i just think se invested points into the wrong stats fi you know what i mean

[Strongfat900]

(Despite being a troll thread)

If it isnt fun, Unsub.
The game will go on...like, really.

Best advice really. As a say goes "take it or leave it".

[Lauront]

It is also entirely possible to enjoy a game despite its flaws, while being able to criticize what one doesn't like. A lot of the time, especially lately, the default reaction to most complaints has been "leave then, no one cares" as if it is some sort of personal attack. A few regulars have been called out on this, and none of them take kindly to that. Well, neither do people being told to leave. It's not as black and white as some make it out to be.

With that said, SE is quite welcome to go in the direction Netflix is currently headed. I wouldn't want that for them, and I am sure they wouldn't either, but it is ready proof that no amount of past success can perpetually insulate from future failure... particularly due to complacence.

[Ransu]

As far as I'm aware, Yoshi P stated he doesn't mind people unsubbing, taking breaks, and coming back whenever they want, which I'd at least say is a much healthier mindset than trying to trap people into playing for as long and often as possible to inflate engagement metrics.... but on the flip side, it also kinda lowkey implies he's expecting the people leaving to come back later, and that's a mindset the WoW dev team and playerbase were also very guilty of - "it's cyclical" "they'll all come back next expansion" "see you next patch" "it's normal during content drought" "the game's fine as is" "you think you want it, but you don't" ...over, and over, and over, and we can see where that lead to - the whole assault debacle wasn't 'the' reason for the bleeding subs, it was just the last straw for many people dealing with what was a sinking ship full of band-aids holding it together thus far.

Sure, you may call it a slippery slope from a paranoid ex-WoW player, but the parallels and red flags are definitely there.

The WoW team did not have that mindset....They have literally been designing their content the last few years to be as grindy as possibly in order to maintain player retention.

The reason WoW players have been enjoying FFXIV is because they don't feel forced to log in every day like they did in WoW because FFXIV doesn't demand you to log in every single day or fall behind.

[Clover_Blake]

Content that "lasts" for long usually (or always) refers to content you have to mindlessly farm for hours and hours of your life.
Sounds like a lot of fun!

Otherwise, all content is going to be finite, especially if you play many hours a day.

[Ronduwil]

The implication is that smart veteran players saw the problems WoW created miles away and spoke up in an effort to try and convince the development team to take a step back and reconsider their plans. Instead they doubled down on questionable design choices and the game began bleeding active subscriptions over time. Any feedback, no matter how constructive, was shot down there as well with the 'jUsT uNsUb BrO' declaration. As if people who are passionate and invested in something should just up and leave rather than fight to try and see a different trajectory embraced.

Eventually even many passionate fans left as well and all that is left today is a soulless husk. A shadow of its former glory.

I can safely suggest that FFXIV is likely to go the same way if recent rends continue.

Yeah, I don't think so. The problem is that everyone has their own opinion on why WoW is in decline, but the most vocal group is the hardcore contingent that always complains that the game is being dumbed down when there is objective proof that it's not. The reason that WoW is in decline while this game is growing was summed up very nicely in a similar parser debate on the WoW forums:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...oxic/1234978/5

Do you remember when you played Street Fighter against your friend as a kid and you both had fun?

This is Final Fantasy.

What if I told you that you were both playing the wrong character because Blanka and Sagat are terrible and that good players play Ryu Ken and E.Honda and if you ever do a combo of less than 4 hits you’re an absolutely terrible player, and if your playing on less than rank 8 of turbo then your street fighter games didn’t even count?

In fact what if I then went further and said that if you come to my house to play street fighter I’m going to review your high scores to see if your good enough to play with me in versus mode before I let you plug in the player two controller?

This is WoW.

I wasn't the one who posted that, but I wholeheartedly agree with that player.

[Liam_Harper]

"If it isn't fun then don't play" is a terrible argument because it's really not black and white.

A game can be fun enough to play and pay for, but still lacking in many areas that cause your enthusiasm to drain faster, or be heading down a bad path in terms of design direction that will likely lead you to move on. Or it could be that the game is simply the best on the market at the time but could easily be overtaken by another game at any moment. But you still like the game overall. You want it to succeed, so you leave feedback.

Do you keep paying for Netflix if you don't like the shows? Do you keep eating at that restaurant if they changed the recipes up n you no longer enjoy their food? Why is being subbed to xiv any different? This has nothing to do with defense. It's called common sense. Don't put you money into things you aren't enjoying

This is a good example. What if Netflix only cancelled a few of your favorite shows. What if your favorite restaurant was still good but only changed a few items on their menu. Of course you'd still go there, but why would you just keep quiet? Then Netflix thinks "ah no complaints, we're on the right track, let's cancel the rest of the shows in that genre" and your favorite restaurant thinks their new dishes are fine and starts changing more of the menu.

Feedback is a vital part of any product that companies value extremely highly. You can like a product enough to pay for it but still have criticism and that criticism is important. How is that so hard to grasp?

Content that "lasts" for long usually (or always) refers to content you have to mindlessly farm for hours and hours of your life.
Sounds like a lot of fun!

It actually can be.
Somehow I happily burnt countless hours in WoW chasing down 1% droprate mounts from old raids and filling out my pet tab years ago. In ff14 I just don't care. Grinds, mounts, minions and such exist but I'm not bothered. It's hard to put a finger on why that's the case here, but it is.

We've somehow fostered a community mindset where caring about earning anything is looked down on, so why bother. There's less emphasis on collections or achievements too. FF14 is the sort of game that discourages investing into it, but an MMO is exactly the sort of thing I want to invest into. I don't mean no-life, just invest. I do actually find that fun.

I think it's a reason we lost the spike of WoW players at launch so fast. WoW players wanted a game to invest into for years too (that didn't involve fomo or infinite treadmills), but you soon realize this isn't the game.