job balancing discussion (1.22a-hotfix)

[Vinta]

Part of the problem may simply be so few jobs?
One Healer (WHM)
Two Tanks (WAR/PLD) (no giggling at PLD tank)
One Magic DD (BLM)
One Range DD (BRD)
Two Melee DD (MNK, DRG)

If the target is weak to magic: One choice -- BLM
If the target is too dangerous to be near: Two Choices -- BLM/BRD
If the target is weak to melee: Two choices -- MNK/DRG

Given that a lot of enemies are just too dangerous to get near, but easy to take out from afar, is it no surprise that BLM/BRD is nice to stack?

That being said, what if we had a variety of different jobs that filled the role of 'Ranged DD':
BLM, SMN, BRD, RNG, COR, SCH, RDM

There would be less job stacking... because the issue not really is the desire to stack a job.. but rather, the desire to stack a role. The primary roles being: Tank, Healer, Melee DD, Ranged DD, Support

If we had 5 jobs for each of those roles, I feel stacking would be gone.

(And if those jobs could co-ordinate together for bonuses, such as in Weapon Skill Chains, then there would be more interest in non-stacking).

You listed Red Mage as if it were a ranged DD.

[Velhart]

You know how clueless you sounds right now? the only AoE's that will hit melee at Chimera is Voice of Ram and it does 1.7k-2k at most, easily avoidable because of the casting time. The other AoE is Poison Sting, very deadly and fast cast, but if you incapacitate the chimera's tail, it will stop using Poison Sting and it suddenly become a very melee friendly fight.

Every fight so far since CC/AV to Garuda is very melee friendly, i am not even sure u have tried to attempt meleeing Chimera properly, by properly i mean not mindlessly punching but playing cautiously making sure skills doesn't get you while attempting to incapacitate its tail.

I am sure we all are after the same thing here, but it's hard to agree with someone that doesn't even deliver the correct information.

and most of the suggestions is very biased to the jobs they wanted to play, nerf the one they hated, So no there aren't really any properly written suggestions. I would love being proved wrong though.

I have done Chimera enough to know how he works, and I know it kills players not in the right spot, that stacked with the poison also. If you are such an expert as you say you are, you would know even if that AoE doesn't kill the melees, you still have the WHM's not only having to keep up with them, but also watch hate on Chimera, which is a very delicate thing and most people don't want to deal with that. Not to mention I have been in a run with WAR/MNK replacing all the BLM's, did the run a few times and not once did his tail break off after using the correct abilities several times, the tail does not just come off. It is inconvenient and adds a huge risk factor to your party's speed run bringing in melee.

Is it possible with a diverse setup? Yes. Do people want to deal with this obscure obstacle if they don't have to? No. Congrats to you if your LS does it this way, but it is only ignorant on your end if you believe Chimera is a balanced fight. I don't think you can actually call an entire community out for using a cookie cutter setup. It is simply that they know better that the fight isn't melee friendly. Rather you can accomplish it or not, it is not balanced fight.

EDIT: Since you don't think it is a good idea, doesn't mean it is a bad one, you just don't like it simply. I love to play as all jobs and always go as what is needed, and I really love the BLM job, but I know that it's AoE needs to be toned down. Rather you agree or not is your own opinion, but that is how I stand on it.

Garuda is also melee friendly because it is forced. I rather be influenced to have a diverse setup, not one forced upon me. It pretty much says that SE can't balance boss fights, so they need to make forceful conditions to make players invite different jobs. Know the reason other MMO's are more successful in class balancing? Because the conditions for everyone is the same and each class brings something to the table that others can't give. So IMO people want diverse parties.

[Colino]

Insane DPS is not your duty as BRD and it never will be.

I never said it is. I said their DPS is not important/useful enough, which means the nerf is unnecessary.

I'm NOT saying the bard SHOULD be doing DPS, they DON'T which is why the nerf is a tad unneccessary. I think I phrased it properly this time. Please ask me again if I didn't.

[Molly_Millions]

I never said it is. I said their DPS is not important/useful enough, which means the nerf is unnecessary.

I'm NOT saying the bard SHOULD be doing DPS, they DON'T which is why the nerf is a tad unneccessary. I think I phrased it properly this time. Please ask me again if I didn't.

I don't see the problem then. They got a small nerf in an area in which they are not meant to be strong in the first place which doesn't reduce their usefulness at all. ARC is DD, BRD is a support role.

[Tango]

PLD should have a superior HP pool to WAR, I'm not sure why it was deemed that PLD needs less HP. Right now I still see a 400HP base difference then WAR. Also as stated the massive enmity from wardrum is broken.

One thing that I could see as a real fix and give PLD its tanking prowess is a buff to Sentinel to increase enmity on ALL actions similar to how Antagonize works for WAR. Right now Sentinel seems to increase enmity of ws's by about 100 but does nothing for voke/flash/rampart etc. If PLD got a sentinel increase II that gave increased enmity for all actions by 100 not just ws's I think that would help level the enmity generation playing field which is the only thing I care about for tanking purposes. Every encounter is easy once you learn the mechanics so if your going to take a PLD over a WAR and loose some DPS from the tank then it needs to make up for that with a higher hate ceiling.

I want to put my 181 enmity set to use on PLD not just WAR burning. I think PLD is a fun job and the skill ceiling to play optimally is much higher then facerolling on WAR but your just not fully rewarded for the effort and that is my problem.

[Req]

PLD should have a superior HP pool to WAR, I'm not sure why it was deemed that PLD needs less HP. Right now I still see a 400HP base difference then WAR. Also as stated the massive enmity from wardrum is broken.

One thing that I could see as a real fix and give PLD its tanking prowess is a buff to Sentinel to increase enmity on ALL actions similar to how Antagonize works for WAR. Right now Sentinel seems to increase enmity of ws's by about 100 but does nothing for voke/flash/rampart etc. If PLD got a sentinel increase II that gave increased enmity for all actions by 100 not just ws's I think that would help level the enmity generation playing field which is the only thing I care about for tanking purposes. Every encounter is easy once you learn the mechanics so if your going to take a PLD over a WAR and loose some DPS from the tank then it needs to make up for that with a higher hate ceiling.

I want to put my 181 enmity set to use on PLD not just WAR burning. I think PLD is a fun job and the skill ceiling to play optimally is much higher then facerolling on WAR but your just not fully rewarded for the effort and that is my problem.

Or you know, just give them a universal damage mitigation job trait.

[Molly_Millions]

PLD should have a superior HP pool to WAR, I'm not sure why it was deemed that PLD needs less HP. Right now I still see a 400HP base difference then WAR. Also as stated the massive enmity from wardrum is broken.

One thing that I could see as a real fix and give PLD its tanking prowess is a buff to Sentinel to increase enmity on ALL actions similar to how Antagonize works for WAR. Right now Sentinel seems to increase enmity of ws's by about 100 but does nothing for voke/flash/rampart etc. If PLD got a sentinel increase II that gave increased enmity for all actions by 100 not just ws's I think that would help level the enmity generation playing field which is the only thing I care about for tanking purposes. Every encounter is easy once you learn the mechanics so if your going to take a PLD over a WAR and loose some DPS from the tank then it needs to make up for that with a higher hate ceiling.

I want to put my 181 enmity set to use on PLD not just WAR burning. I think PLD is a fun job and the skill ceiling to play optimally is much higher then facerolling on WAR but your just not fully rewarded for the effort and that is my problem.

In my experience, PLD does hold hate better than WAR. It's not a huge increase, but is noticeable. It also seems to build hate faster at the start of a fight. Whether that's enough to go with PLD and it's lower dps and hp over WAR is another story though.

[Resheph]

I think above nerfs for WAR what would make PLD a better tank would be making PLD a better tank, instead of nerfing WAR.

[Kaith]

I don't see the problem then. They got a small nerf in an area in which they are not meant to be strong in the first place which doesn't reduce their usefulness at all. ARC is DD, BRD is a support role.

The problem is why bother nerfing it at all? They already shoehorned ARC's into being a support role when people levelled it to be a DD. And now they are taking away more of its DD'ing capabilities. If everybody just shrugs their shoulders and says nothing then it's probably more likely to happen again in future.

And yes it will come across as whiny and butthurt from a lot of ARC/BRD's. However, I'm willing to wager that if another job had its fundamental role completely changed and then had its original role stripped away from it, that class would QQ just the same. Obviously that did not all happen last night, it was just a continuation.

And like you said BRD is support, ARC is a DD. Did ARC as a DD need a nerf because it was overpowered? No, it did not. It was bottom/lower tier before yesterdays update and now it is even worse off as it got nerfed whilst other DD jobs got buffs. If they had made it only applicable to BRD or given some ARC exclusive ability to make up for it then fair enough but they didn't. It was a flat out nerf.

[Molly_Millions]

The problem is why bother nerfing it at all? They already shoehorned ARC's into being a support role when people levelled it to be a DD. And now they are taking away more of its DD'ing capabilities. If everybody just shrugs their shoulders and says nothing then it's probably more likely to happen again in future.

And yes it will come across as whiny and butthurt from a lot of ARC/BRD's. However, I'm willing to wager that if another job had its fundamental role completely changed and then had its original role stripped away from it, that class would QQ just the same. Obviously that did not all happen last night, it was just a continuation.

And like you said BRD is support, ARC is a DD. Did ARC as a DD need a nerf because it was overpowered? No, it did not. It was bottom/lower tier before yesterdays update and now it is even worse off as it got nerfed whilst other DD jobs got buffs. If they had made it only applicable to BRD or given some ARC exclusive ability to make up for it then fair enough but they didn't. It was a flat out nerf.

Every class/job got some sort of adjustment. That's what happens when things get balanced properly. Cry me a river.