Samurai Thread

[Chasingstars]

I can see that being limited to iaijutsus for the sake of simplicity. But I don't main samurai, so I am not very much aware if there is corner cases where a kaiten was useful for non-iaijutsu weaponskills.

I do concur that it might lead to the job feeling a tad samey, which is always a tough thing in development to fix. Seen it happen in other things, such as the digital card game hearthstone, where the people working on it even from the alpha, tried their best to make sure each of the classes didn't have cards that were copypasted versions of each other with minor differences. Although as the game grew older it led to those very same kind of cards they tried to keep out becoming commonplace.

Another thing that popped in my head was merging shoha 1 & shoha 2 together via a trait. Where the upgrade for shoha would be the aoe function of shoha 2. Although with numbers as is, it would be a weird and uneven 208 potency attack. So obviously this would require a bit more specific tweakings to find a happy amount.

Yea that is the worries of homogenization I was talking about.
As it always go back to the whole thing of 'if it works for [x], then surely it can also work for [y] as they share the same design space'.
In theory it could work with the iaijutsu being kenki spenders, though there is also the question of rotation and what other spenders would be normally weaved if such a thing was implemented.
Shoha 2 as a trait could work, if its potency was lowered to 500 when affecting a primary target plus secondary targets for an easy rounded 40%, but still having 520 for when affecting only one total enemy.
However I do wonder if they even have the technology available for an ability to make such a distinction upon activation.

[Edweena]

Further elaboration on why the over all changes are bad in comparison to other jobs, especially monks rework that rolled out in several patches;

At this point I'm convinced it's a decision for some out of touch future proofing, that should be saved for 6.5/7.0

If they wanted to remove Kaiten and make larger overall changes, they should have saved Kaiten's removal for 6.5, and give us the new stuff shortly after in 7.0 while introducing real QOL and skill floor solutions (during 6.1-6.4) like the ones I've suggested.
Warm us up to change like they did with QOL changes on Monk throughout SHB, then make real changes at the next expansion. No one would be unhappy for the early patch cycles, and it would build up trust for a change like Kaiten's removal.
As it is currently it's hard to trust the direction of Samurai's design as it clearly offers nothing in place of 6.0 (every "positive" change is contentious from potencies, crit synergy, to tenka goken, nothing offers a pure improvement in place of what we had before).

Going potentially 5 patch cycles without Kaiten (which is unlikely imo due to feedback) aka 2 years after many locked Samurai in as their main during the 6.0 cycle is beyond ridiculous.
Oh and yes please revert 6.1 Samurai changes thank you.

Kaiten's largest issue with it's removal is that it invalidates kenki management as well, and if a resource is becoming invalidated as it no longer needs to be managed, then it stands to reason that the resource should be removed entirely.

I no longer even keep kenki on screen as I just press shinten when it lights up, pooling has also become less important with trick attacks raid buff removed, and Ikishoten granting us half of our kenki for the only remaining raid buff window now at 2m.
Shoha can't even be pooled in any tangible way since you need to get it out between Iaijutsu / Ogi Namikiri, so just press that sucker as soon as it glows!

Kaiten was the only thing keeping my eyes on managing kenki, and now that it's gone I no longer need kenki as a visual reference.
(It's like having the DRK's Darkside Gauge before obtaining The Blackest Night, I kept asking why the fuck is this job gauge a thing?)
They can change Shinten into a charge based CD similar to Bloodletter / Rain of Death (Shinten / Kyuten) and save on ui bloat while retaining what amounts to the exact same gameplay since we gain the resource statically.
Ikishoten could even grant 2 charges of Shinten / Kyuten and it would be literally the same.

So yeah they can delete kenki now lol.
And hopefully give us a completely new resource? There's no guarantee though. Especially since such an enormous change would likely be saved for 7.0 roughly 2 years from now, of boring boring gameplay.

Which is kind of why Kaiten's removal is such a sore spot for me since it indicates that they have no real plan, unlike Monk which rolled out good and gradual changes over the course of several patches, then saved the final and most challenging changes for 6.0 after introducing loaaaads of welcome changes, IE building trust.

[Chasingstars]

I'm just gonna repost what I had in another thread since it goes over what they could have done instead of removing Kaiten;

There's no need to compromise on Kaiten's removal, it was unnecessary and other solutions exist that aren't outside the realm of possibility especially since they already DO exist in this very game just under other job designers.

Further elaboration on why the over all changes are bad in comparison to other jobs, especially monks rework that rolled out in several patches;

Kaiten's largest issue with it's removal is that it invalidates kenki management as well, and if a resource is becoming invalidated as it no longer needs to be managed, then it stands to reason that the resource should be removed entirely.

I no longer even keep kenki on screen as I just press shinten when it lights up, pooling has also become less important with trick attacks raid buff removed, and Ikishoten granting us half of our kenki for the only remaining raid buff window now at 2m.
Shoha can't even be pooled in any tangible way since you need to get it out between Iaijutsu / Ogi Namikiri.
Kaiten was the only thing keeping my eyes on managing kenki, and now that it's gone I no longer need kenki as a visual resource.
They can change Shinten into a charge based CD similar to Bloodletter / Rain of Death (Shinten / Kyuten) and save on ui bloat while retaining what amounts to the exact same gameplay since we gain the resource statically.
Ikishoten could even grant 2 charges of Shinten / Kyuten and it would be literally the same.

So yeah they can delete kenki now lol.

Those are both very helpful posts you posted.
I do agree with you that it would be in the best interest to merge Guren and Senei and also merging both Shohas together.
I have myself noticed the dragoon change with high jump and mirage dive when playing it here and there and while I found it odd at first I warmed up to it.

If I might inquire, are you fine with various jobs having their buttons becoming morphing buttons?
Also second question would be, relating to morphing buttons for samurai, is this for ease of use on controller or pc gameplay?

[Edweena]

If I might inquire, are you fine with various jobs having their buttons becoming morphing buttons?
Also second question would be, relating to morphing buttons for samurai, is this for ease of use on controller or pc gameplay?

If you mean combos like the 1 2 3 combos usually found across Melee / Ranged Physical then yeah as long as it's an options it's fantastic, it's just accessibility.

I myself don't have issues with getting around button bloat on Samurai (on PC), but do always get annoyed when they decide to justify an entire keybinding to an action / ability for no reason.
Looking at Draw / Play on Astro for example, also their royal draw / royal play. (which is essentially the Ikishoten / Ogi Namikiri issue currently but even worse poor Astro)
It's absurd especially since they just create more problems for themselves in the future, then resort to this kind of left field change to address vaguely defined "action bloat" which may or may not be a reference to APM (which was no alleviated by the changes) or actual button bloat.

[darkdyllon]

Those are both very helpful posts you posted.
I do agree with you that it would be in the best interest to merge Guren and Senei and also merging both Shohas together.
I have myself noticed the dragoon change with high jump and mirage dive when playing it here and there and while I found it odd at first I warmed up to it.

If I might inquire, are you fine with various jobs having their buttons becoming morphing buttons?
Also second question would be, relating to morphing buttons for samurai, is this for ease of use on controller or pc gameplay?

the only time i'm really OK with an button morphing into another skill is when it's relevant to it.
for example with Red Mage where VerAero/Thunder (i think) turn into holy and flare and then the 2 combo starters turning into Scorch and then into Resolution, it's relevant to the combo, but you still have your seperate buttons outside of those times, so it doesn't become a mindless "spam 1-1-1"

In a sense SAM already had that morphing button with it's Iaitsu taking on 3 forms depending on the sens you had, so that wouldn't really be new (again it's relevant to the action at hand)
if they decide to make the 1-2-3 into an 1-1-1 morphing button like PvP i wouldn't be very happy, sure 1-2-3 is easy, but 1-1-1 is even more braindead, would save on 2 buttons since they're latetly so obsessed with "action/button bloat" and making everything work with controller (like AST isn't gonna work at a decent level simply because you gotta target specific members really fast, give them the card/heal and then re-target the boss, i play controller, it's possible but not as good as m+k)

[Edweena]

However I do wonder if they even have the technology available for an ability to make such a distinction upon activation.

All my proposed ideas include technology and solutions already present in the game btw, so there is no excuse for the current state of samurai over what I and many others propose, don't compromise!
You can source it looking at the Warrior Job Guide, as it's where I photoshopped a lot of that text into the example image: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/warrior/
Go to the Paladin from there to look at Spirits Within into Expacion, and check out the Gunbreaker's Gnashing Fang too if you're curious.

The only minor tech issue is Ogi is a weapon skill, while Ikishoten is an ability, and usually they don't chain a weaponskill into an ability...
HOWEVER, Ogi Namikiri goes from being a weaponskill currently into Kaeshi Namikiri, AN ABILITY, SO PSYCHE I GUESS.

Even then, if there was some BIZARRE technical limitation where Kaiten couldn't affect Ogi Namikiri, because the Ikishoten > Ogi / Kaeshi Namikiri chain was all made into abilities, that would still be completelyyyyy fine, I didn't even think of using Kaiten on Ogi Namikiri when I first started EW lol.