WHM LB still charges too fast.

[Gserpent]

I play mostly ranged job, I don't have that problem either.

Melee will always be "out of position" for 40y 30y 25y range spells, might as well remove all of them from the game. Its not like WHM has 0y 5y 5y for range.

Sheep has standard 25yd range. Misery and Aquaveil have a longer than average 30yd range but considering the low impact of both spells, it's not a big deal.

Melee generally have a higher skill demand than ranged classes simply because you have to be more aware of counter-initiation on you. Bad players rush in, get sheeped, and die like chumps and then rage at the game instead of realizing they just got punished for playing dumb. Good melee don't overextend and play conservatively if they know the WHM hasn't sheeped anyone yet, if they know the enemy has multiple stuns and binds that haven't been used yet.

Given the *wide* range of player skill in Crystal, you can't guarantee what your opponents are like unless you've fought them repeatedly before. ME UNGA BUNGA tends to get punished severely and can cost your team the game if your opponents are competent. But that's exactly what a *lot* of players even in Crystal and the top 100 do, cost their team the games (or at least require their team to hard-carry them for most of the game), and then rage about "omg WHM OP" instead of just admitting that they did something really stupid and got what they deserved.

Not an uncommon problem in multiplayer games. People are either unwilling to engage in self-reflection or simply never learned how. It's why they remain low skill players.

[Lymberey]

Sheep has standard 25yd range. - Bad players rush in, get sheeped, and die like chumps and then rage at the game instead of realizing they just got punished for playing dumb. -Good melee don't overextend and play conservatively if they know the WHM hasn't sheeped anyone yet,

Getting sheeped from 25y away is not overextending. Aren't you the same guy who complained about getting jumped on with 40/40y range advantage in positioning? Now you suggest melees to play conservatively until someone got sheeped and focused to death? I'm lost for words.

Oh wait..... i think i just understood what you are doing....

Well played sir, Well played.

[Cheremia]

Getting sheeped from 25y away is not overextending. Aren't you the same guy who complained about getting jumped on with 40/40y range advantage in positioning? Now you suggest melees to play conservatively until someone got sheeped and focused to death? I'm lost for words.

Oh wait..... i think i just understood what you are doing....

Well played sir, Well played.

LOL... anyways

The only thing i consider OP are Rdms dots and i will stand by that point.


Other jank should be checked out like how open dancers are for their lb and the need to attack to get full duration for it. Which is stupid.
And Morph should be pruifyable.

Otherwise, my point still stands. 1o1 a whm is a stalemate for pretty much every class other than 100% sam and rdm. Nins are also very annoying monks can end it with LB too.
I enjoy whms trying to 1o1 me, morphing me, seraphstriking me, misery... while i just continue to hit their team in a stack.

Sheep alone doesn't kill so he is kind of right by that. If you are in a 1v3+, chances are that you are dead without the sheep. Getting sheeped while people already are hitting you just means you die faster. I die a lot to being morphed if i am out of guard and recups and heals, tbh? And then it doesnt make a single difference if i was or wasn't morphed.
It does need the team to focus YOU. The best way to use sheep IS indeed when the enemies are already getting hit by pretty much your whole team, that's smart usage of it too.

As said, play whm, give it a fair try, try to line up your lbs as best as possible, hit as many people with it as you can. Try to get the most out of morphing. It all doesn't JUST happen just because you use them.
You have a problem with good whms and i dont understand how that's a complaint of them being op?
I have a problem with monks/nins/reapers/sams/etc. that don't LEAVE ME ALONE FOR THE WHOLE MATCH!!!!!!!!!!! They are playing good, they are stopping me from actively supporting my team. Even tho i HATE it... SO MUCH.

Contrary to popular belief, the lb DOES need a lot of planning. You can just let it rip and hit one person. Which is the most useless point to use it.
Or you can line yourself up very well and hit as many people as possible with it. Preferably if your team is fighting many enemies already, so its extra chipdamage.

I can tell you that hitting many people can happen a lot when people cuddle, so it's like "haha see it's op right" even tho these people play wrong in the first place.
But if they are all over the place, which happens a lot more, how will you use it?
I just don't see the op in a 40 yalm long and like 5 yalms wide thing anymore(same with war, just don't stack lmao) after playing ast... Its situational as hell and people NEED to realize this first.
Whm LB is only good if you hit many people with it to be disruptive. Don't stack and it won't be a problem. You get hit anyways? Congrats, they are targeting YOU or you were lining up too much.

People being good with the class they play doesn't make said class op. Many people use WHM so badly that it's laughable just because it was deemed op day 3 of a new thing where nobody understood anything.
I played enough splatoont hat i know how to play tower control, but many people don't use recup as often as they should, are always on the crystal, think healers have unlimited heals, guard way too late, run into enemies for no reason, don't let healers drive the crystal while you bully further ahead and weave BACK IF YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED AND NEED HEALS.
You 100% should use pots when you are out of mp and are able to run away. Many people just keep going with no mp and then die. It's insane.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

WHM is op tho right? So it going badly can't be whms fault since they can do everything and anything right?.

This is a bizarre otherworldly reply to a conversation about the individual kits.

I can pull top damage as SGE that doesn't mean SGE has the best kit.

An exception doesn't disprove the rule, nor do bad players change the kit.

I have played WHM plenty and it's a million times easier to self sustain and group sustain while also providing a good stream of background support/utility.

Should we keep using anecdotal evidence only when it suits our own opinions or shall we go back to discussing the kit itself and the LB like we're supposed to?

But if they are all over the place, which happens a lot more, how will you use it?

Usually everytime it's up if it's something that can help secure a kill on even one person. That's the whole reason this thread exists. There is zero risk and all the reward for using this LB in every situation imaginable. 1 person or 5 people it doesn't matter, the LB is still good and becuase it comes up so fast there's no risk to just using it to kill or grief until it comes back up.

People being good with the class they play doesn't make said class op. Many people use WHM so badly that it's laughable just because it was deemed op day 3 of a new thing where nobody understood anything.

If two people are heading towards a destination and one is driving an automatic and one is driving a manual, the latter of which has never driven manual before, yes they'll fail despite driving the same model of car.

The false equivalence here is ignoring a 40y laser beam that can stun an entire group especially when in overtime you HAVE to be grouped up or risk losing the crystal.

So for every class if we can point out players who suck with it like you did with the WHM trying to "1o1 you" that means there is no problem with the kits then yeah? So doesn't the fact that the WHM couldn't kill you further prove your assessment of bad players vs saying the kit sucks? Or which is it? lol

We can't say "The kit is crap because no one can kill" and then in the same breath say "Well most WHM players suck" and assume there's no overlap.

[Ransu]

You say this, and yet I literally never have this issue. Positioning isn't just "hide behind wall."

Then you don't play melee.

[Risvertasashi]

Getting sheeped from 25y away is not overextending. Aren't you the same guy who complained about getting jumped on with 40/40y range advantage in positioning? Now you suggest melees to play conservatively until someone got sheeped and focused to death? I'm lost for words.

The range the poly is done from doesn't actually matter.

What matters is if a melee dives right into a group of 5 people when they have their burst up, something not that uncommon in lower ranks and casual. If they do, the poly is lethal, but they'll die even if there's no white mage on the opponents team.

And melee have a lot going for them. High LB, short CD gap closers, and completely free movement while DPSing. So much so that a fleeing mage or physical ranged can't really do much of anything about a melee on them, other than hope their team assists. But, yes, that comes with the caveat of "Yeah you need a minimum sense to wait until an enemy is at least slightly distracted, has used their burst, or is split up before jumping right into a group of them."

Still, there's a reason there's more meta melees than any other role. They're strong, even with that caveat. And, hey, if you think poly is bad - one of them even has an uncleansable stun that cancels the target's guard. Even poly can't do that.

But that's exactly what a *lot* of players even in Crystal and the top 100 do, cost their team the games (or at least require their team to hard-carry them for most of the game), and then rage about "omg WHM OP" instead of just admitting that they did something really stupid and got what they deserved.

Not an uncommon problem in multiplayer games. People are either unwilling to engage in self-reflection or simply never learned how. It's why they remain low skill players.

Crystal? Man, this happens at every level. and WHM is only one of many scapegoats. It might also be "cheaters" holding them back at silver. Or the most common across all ranked multiplayer games: "My team is bad and holds me back, it's why I'm hardstuck at <insert rank here> for months."

In fact, I found WHM to be extremely overloaded compared to AST which is conditional and micro heavy, SGE which lack range on burst (made up with 2 charges), healing capability, party buff and CC, and SCH which lack burst and CC.
None of the other three have non-purifiable hard CC, have no targetable purify, no hard CC aka stun, and for some reason, no instant AoE healing and group regen.
WHM lacks.... DoT....

Your problem here is that you're comparing white mage to other healers.

You should compare white mage (and every healer) to ninja, dragoon, red mage, and so on.

If you make white mage like other healers, it will be trash like other healers and you simply won't see healers anywhere but casual and low ranks. If you make the other healers like good DPS, they'll become viable too.

As I keep having to repeat: There are no healers (or tanks) in CC. Everyone is a DPS, and has to compete with other DPS.

[Ransu]

My BRD feels more like a support than a DPS because it hits like a wet noodle. The assumption that "everyone is a DPS" is just wrong at this point. PLD is definitely not a DPS and definitely cannot compete with other DPS. Warrior can pump out some ok burst during LB but that's it....Everyone is not a DPS, roles exist even if its just minor, there's still heavy differences between tank healer and dps jobs in pvp.

[Risvertasashi]

My BRD feels more like a support than a DPS because it hits like a wet noodle. The assumption that "everyone is a DPS" is just wrong at this point. PLD is definitely not a DPS and definitely cannot compete with other DPS. Warrior can pump out some ok burst during LB but that's it....Everyone is not a DPS, roles exist even if its just minor, there's still heavy differences between tank healer and dps jobs in pvp.

PLD is one of the best jobs for 1v1. It's very much a DPS. A great one, even. Not to suggest 1v1 is a benchmark but it does highlight high potential in some cases.

But to the general answer - yes there's "support" but it's like support in, well, any game with weak to nonexistent healing. It's still mostly DPS, with some having a bit more emphasis on buffs/anti-CC or debuffs/CC than actual damage but all still being more into DPS than anything else. In FF14's case, more than pve healers are into DPS, and that's truly an impressive feat.

So, yes, you give up some power for silence in BRD's case, or poly and a stun LB in WHM's case, and so on.

But also, BRD isn't balanced. If you use it as the benchmark, you'd need to adjust a ton of jobs at once, or you'd just kill the one/few that you do adjust to BRD levels.

[Ransu]

PLD is good in 1v1 because *gasp* its TANKY. They have extremely good CD's that are very much in the meta of a tank. Their damage is hot trash, they just out survive the opponent. Its the same reason dueling healers in ANY mmo pvp will usually result in the healer winning because they can just kite and outlive the dps as they whittle them down with whatever their dps tool kit is (in swtor for example a sorc can just dot you to death and kite you forever)

[Lymberey]

The range the poly is done from doesn't actually matter. What matters is if a melee dives right into a group of 5 people when they have their burst up.
-Ok, first of all, the definition of 'Dive' is an act of breaking through the FRONTLINE, which is melees and tanks, into the backline of supports. Getting sheeped from 25y away means you are not diving, just in the frontline. Gap closers also have 25y. You will be in range of melees before getting in range of backline which isn't considered as diving or overextending. Overextending, diving, and being in the frontline are all different.

"Yeah you need a minimum sense to wait until an enemy is at least slightly distracted------."
-Yeah, because everyone has minimum sense and one has to be a sacrificial lamb. This is why we have Tank role or some unlucky melee DPS. This game is very easy to spot a split, this is not a FPS, unless its a NIN. Don't tell me you still use that jump in and use Guard to bait out burst..... Not to mention splitting up can make you even more of a clear target.

One of them even has an purifiable stun that cancels the target's guard. Even poly can't do that.
-Two, MNK and AoE for RPR. All LB. Might as well throw in NIN LB for guard piercing. All 3 can do something akin to stun and cancel/pierce Guard but that would be comparing an unpurifiable 25s cd skill to LBs.

Your problem here is that you're comparing white mage to other healers.
-Your problem there is the fact that you tell me to compare healers to burst type DPSs. They have different kits.

If you make white mage like other healers, it will be trash like other healers and you simply won't see healers anywhere but casual and low ranks.
-All healers can contribute in different ways. It is just that WHM has immediate and impactful results right out the gate.

There are no healers (or tanks) in CC. Everyone is a DPS.
-Let me tell you about the basic characteristics of each role.
Tank (minus GNB, God bless their souls) :
+They have a lot of self sustain or CC or both, naturally high health, and can take a lot more punishment compared to other roles.
+Their LBs were designed to keep them alive for much longer which is very good for contests, stalling or being a sacrificial lamb.

Healer :
+They have targetable healing capabilities, party buffs or debuffs or both, CC or no CC, DoT or no DoT.
+All of their LBs can give their party a huge passive advantage in team fights and contests.

DPS :
+They have many dmg dealing options, self buff, moderate-high dmg potential, have CC to increase killing capabilities.
+Their LBs are mostly very damaging or devastating to the opposing team and have a lot of play-making potential.

Truth be told, Tank, Healer, DPS are just blanket level terms as each job is different depending on their individual kit. The real classification is not that simple.
Still, there is no good reason for WHM LB to have fastest recharge time for all it does and an unpurifiable cc.