So...About Blue Mage

[Raikai]

Very true, and as much as i like moonflute as a concept i wouldnt mind giving it up or having a weaker version of it for the sake of balance on a normal job blu, as it does seem to be the only sticking point of its rotation, they would have to compensate elswhere though, as blus damage output without moonflute isnt all that.

Edit: a decent change could be "the next 5 spells cast have the effect of bristle/whistle applied to them and are instant cast" then shorten the lockout time to 10s, that way moonflute helps set up triple trident and matra under buffs

Honestly I would love a Moon Flute redesign just as the job is today.

I feel it's a bad design to force a character to just... run around doing nothing for 15s after a period of burst. Reminds me of old MCH overheat, except that there you could at least do something as opposed to goof around.

They could nerf MF's potency for say, 15-20% and let you play normally but just at a 15-20% for those 15s.

[BubblyBoar]

Yes and no. Saying that Blue Mage is just "Mage using monster Spells" is half truth at best since it omits the way they acquire those skills. Regardless of the game and Blue Mage incarnation it's always removed from mechanics that govern other jobs. In V where you either found/bought skills and spells, or learned them via Job Level ups the Blue Mage required you to seek out enemies with unique skills and get hit by them in order to expand your arsenal. Same deal in 6 with Strago. Even 8 has you seeking out enemies to feed their drops to Quistis. And it's always only up to the player too seek out those enemies and obtain their power. And that's what they aimed to capture. A non linear progression that leaves it up to the player. Something so incompatible with MMO ideas that it's kept in it's own bubble, seen only as a novelty. Yes it's lifespan is finite, yes they are locked from any major content but I like them when I eventually get tired of regular jobs

That's not true at all. BLU in its current incarnation already requires specific spells for some quests and unlocks. So requiring those things to participate in duties can be done the same way. In fact, acquiring spells could be a part of job quests that can be required. They could have easily done it that way and it would never have been a problem. They simply chose not to. There was nothing that forced them to make BLU limited other than their own desire to do so.

[Auryan]

Pet AI has a long history of being buggy in MMOs. Summoner had its share from problems with the egis. Bahamut would even just sit there and not hit anything. EW finally saw summoner pets essentially take on a more decorative role performing a bare minimum of attacks in a general area. Beast master seems like something that will remain in the realm of NPC capabilities.

Puppet master could potentially work. I think they could do some kind of marionette / mount situation where we have control over a puppet, but we would likely have more turrets. I think rather than being limited, it should actually be something like Arcanist, where it can branch off into at least 2 different roles.

Pet AI's being buggy will definitely be a thing, but I say they embrace the jank. So what if your pet Malboro's Bad Breath is a second late? It will all be worth it when your enemies are covered in 8 status effects and reduced to knee high length. Seeing as BLU isn't balanced around being an optimal DPS against other DPS, why should the thought of BST or PUP having perfect uptime be such an important thing?

We know that the devs hate the ACN/SCH/SMN situation and if they could go back in time they would have never gone that road, so that option is not happening. I like some of your other PUP ideas though.

[ReiMakoto]

Sure, I get that. But if you have "limited BLU" versus "unlimited BLU" as basically functionally separate jobs, and you have to strip away everything that basically makes blue magic "blue magic" (e.g., learning the spells by seeing them cast) in order to make it play well within level roulette... why not just make a different caster? Instead of a broken blue mage stripped of its blue magic identity, why not come up with a different caster that has some identity that works better in roulette?
Or, to put it another way: if, in order to make BLU work in normal play, you have to...

• Ensure that BLU learns spells at specific levels like other jobs (rather than learning them in content through observation), so you can guarantee that a given BLU has the necessary spells (rather than joining Roulette at level 63 while only having Water Cannon).
• Strip out the spellbook functionality, so that you can guarantee a given BLU DPS in a roulette has the necessary skills to function at that level, rather than some custom spell-set that doesn't work. (Who's going to want to wait for 15 minutes while a BLU tries to shuffle their spells to something appropriate to whatever they got in roulette?)
• Ensure that BLU syncs down in roulettes, so that (for instance) you don't have 17 AoEs in Sastasha while the other DPS has precisely none.
• Limit BLU to the DPS role, rather than allowing it to tank/heal, so that roulettes can role-match in a sane manner.

...then I would ask, what exactly about blue mage makes you want to play it in normal content? This is not a facetious question, I am genuinely curious; to me, all the things that would need to get stripped out to make BLU work in normal content would be most of the things that I personally feel actually make BLU... well, BLU. As opposed to just another caster?

Yes, it's possible they could basically define a set of spells from the BLU spellbook and just give them to you at various levels, and turn it into a normal caster; mechanically, that's possible. But what would give BLU a separate identity from any other caster at that point? What would make it worth making one of the two jobs in 7.0 be "BLU with a set spellbook where spells unlock automatically level by level, enforced DPS role, and with all the weird buffs/debuffs that would make balancing high-end content (like Savage or Ultimates) incredibly difficult if they had them", as opposed to some other caster?

Personally, I would prefer BLU remain BLU -- and a limited job that can be all the weird things -- and just get another caster. Because if you've split BLU into functionally two jobs... what's the gain? This is a genuine question, because I don't understand what it is that people actually want out of "second BLU".

And you would have to split it, realistically, because 1. existing BLU needs to be able to learn spells in the overworld, but you wouldn't want someone advancing the MSQ with that, and 2. you wouldn't want someone able to power-level "unlimited BLU' via "limited BLU"s absurd overworld XP buff. Among other things.

(I mean, this is leaving aside the fact that if they did make "unlimited BLU" one of the two jobs for 7.0, I can just imagine the howling on the forums about "that's not a new job, they just took an existing job and stripped all the neat stuff out to give us another caster DPS! That's so lazy! We should get a third job!" or whatever.)

To take your points a few at a time:

An unlimited blu is not stripped of its identity, peope have this no true scotsman fallacy built up around blu's identity. At its core BLU is just a caster who uses monster spells, how those spells are learned and implemented changes from iteration to iteration, and is even not "true" by a lot of peoples conditions in xiv, because many of your impactful spells are learned from totems.

"then I would ask, what exactly about blue mage makes you want to play it in normal content". If you've played blu raids, you'll have noticed that for the majority of most fights you are playing as "just another caster" if youre running dps blu. And you know what, DPS blu's rotation is fun to me, you make the point of "all the weird buffs/debuffs that would make balancing high-end content (like Savage or Ultimates) incredibly difficult if they had them" but what are you actually talking about? Current BLU in raids isn't unbalanced because of any debuffs they have, theyre unbalanced because dps mimicry gives an absurdly large arbitrary DPS buff, the rest of the stuff they have is not particularly unbalanced, and a lot of the time only becomes unbalanced by the nature of stacking multiple of the same job, which is something you also witness in 8 tank clears of savage/ ultimate so is not exclusive to BLU's identity.

The other thing is for some people, BLU is their favourite job in the franchise, imagine a world where for some ungodly reason RDM was a limited job because "it was too hard to balance being both a Black Mage and White mage ability". People would want an unlimited RDM because RDM is their favourite class, its not hard to wrap your head around.

Also "Limit BLU to the DPS role, rather than allowing it to tank/heal, so that roulettes can role-match in a sane manner" is not even a problem, there is no planet where someone would want a BLU tank over a regular tank, BLU tanking is a novelty much like titan egi used to be, or DPS tanking in Bozja, it works but very not well, and the same but to a lesser degree with healer, although thats a whole other can of worms with healer design, and you probably would want to take a blu healer, but only because healing reqs are so low in this game that a BLU being a healer would have more dps options.

TLDR:

Current BLU already has a pretty balanced and fun rotation so WHY NOT have that available as an unlimited form, the game already can gate your progression by checking what spells you have, and adding level ranges for spells is not particularly challenging. For a quick fix, just block DF/MSQ access to unlimited BLU behind finishing the level 70 blu quests, and have another quest that checks if you have the right spells unlocked after. From that point on just have BLU's overworld leveling disabled for above 70 and have check ins every 10 levels where DF access for the next set of 10 levels in disabled until youve learned the 1 or 2 skills added to the unlimited rotation in that level range.

[aveyond-dreams]

There is no meaningful future for Blue Mage outside of one day being promoted to a full job. Given its complete absence from the EW patch roadmap, it is clear that updating this content is no longer a priority. Whether for lack of passion or lack of resources, Blue Mage is now a "whenever we get to it" project. The barrier to entry is too obtuse for a game that has many other side activities that are easy to jump into. I will forever maintain that allowing the word "limited" to enter this game's vocabulary with this job lead to nothing good.

In any case, if male Viera somehow became a thing then so can a full Blue Mage job. Those who would rather defend the limited design would then go on to have the same reaction that the Viera haters had, "I can't believe they listened to the complainers!" Well yes if there wasn't a problem, people wouldn't be complaining about a job added all the way back in 2019.

[Auryan]

There is no meaningful future for Blue Mage outside of one day being promoted to a full job. Given its complete absence from the EW patch roadmap, it is clear that updating this content is no longer a priority. Whether for lack of passion or lack of resources, Blue Mage is now a "whenever we get to it" project. The barrier to entry is too obtuse for a game that has many other side activities that are easy to jump into. I will forever maintain that allowing the word "limited" to enter this game's vocabulary with this job lead to nothing good.

In any case, if male Viera somehow became a thing then so can a full Blue Mage job. Those who would rather defend the limited design would then go on to have the same reaction that the Viera haters had, "I can't believe they listened to the complainers!" Well yes if there wasn't a problem, people wouldn't be complaining about a job added all the way back in 2019.

It was mentioned to be updated sometime during EW. Not being given a specific date of release =/= dumped to the wayside. If so, I guess the anticipated updates to the Golden Saucer should also be considered as an afterthought. Because it's either 6.4 or 6.5 for that.
The barrier entry is relatively low? I mean, all you need is to complete 2.0 and with the most recent update, you can very easily solo most of the spells and level to max in no time. Other goals require more time and effort, go figure.

Male Viera and BLU are completely different topics. Are you for real? One is a race made for purely aesthetic reasons and BLU is a piece of side content. Next you'll compare Hrothgar hairstyles with the addition of a 2nd Ultimate or something.

[Deveryn]

I think it's odd to talk about BLU becoming a full job. It already is. It stands on its own and does everything and more than other jobs. Pushing for it to fit into all the typical daily activities and content is pushing it to a more plain and nerfed status. All the fun spells would surely be stripped in that situation: Ultravibration, Death, Missile, Doom, etc. Primal spells would likely get cut for stepping on SMN toes. Be careful what you wish for.

[aveyond-dreams]

It was mentioned to be updated sometime during EW. Not being given a specific date of release =/= dumped to the wayside. If so, I guess the anticipated updates to the Golden Saucer should also be considered as an afterthought. Because it's either 6.4 or 6.5 for that.
The barrier entry is relatively low? I mean, all you need is to complete 2.0 and with the most recent update, you can very easily solo most of the spells and level to max in no time. Other goals require more time and effort, go figure.

Male Viera and BLU are completely different topics. Are you for real? One is a race made for purely aesthetic reasons and BLU is a piece of side content. Next you'll compare Hrothgar hairstyles with the addition of a 2nd Ultimate or something.

Viera and Hrothgar hairs were never given specific release timeframes. Logic follows that Blue Mage falling in line with this will not bode well for the future of limited job content. Gold Saucer, unlike Blue Mage, doesn't have an absurd barrier to entry and just recently got updated with new rewards. People are "ok" with it and Gold Saucer content isn't nearly as controversial as this situation is.

Blue Mage's levelling meta has always been getting power-leveled by another player to max, the "solo" experience for Blue Mage by comparison is little more than a lengthy boring grind. It isn't fun. Not an overworld that has no danger like this one does. This isn't FFXI where you can get away with this sort of thing. Other goals in this game aren't as boring to do and thus you see more of the playerbase doing those instead of wasting time on Blue Mage.

I bring up the male Viera thing specifically because it shows that continued community efforts over time result in tangible change. Perhaps if we didn't have so many people willing to rush to SE's defense on Blue Mage, it would have been a full job half-way into Shadowbringers instead of being pushed down to one of the lowest priorities. Now Blue Mages will have to wait for the Hrothgar hair person to find time in their schedule to work on something for Blue Mage.

As a form of content, limited jobs feel like they would be taxing to work on and try to keep innovating for. Blue Mages to my knowledge got less and less carnival fights per patch, that and less spells. Either resources are strained, or the people who work on this would rather be working on something else given the chance. That is the impression that I am getting, and why I want to see this job become a full job. And yeah, at this point I'd much rather see Hrothgar hairs be worked on or get an extra Ultimate than see updates to content that seems to be going nowhere.

I think it's odd to talk about BLU becoming a full job. It already is. It stands on its own and does everything and more than other jobs. Pushing for it to fit into all the typical daily activities and content is pushing it to a more plain and nerfed status. All the fun spells would surely be stripped in that situation: Ultravibration, Death, Missile, Doom, etc. Primal spells would likely get cut for stepping on SMN toes. Be careful what you wish for.

So be it. As it stands now having all the overpowered spells in the world and nothing to use them in makes the job completely useless outside of grinding for Allied Seals. Blue Mage should not have ever had those primal spells-they should have been Summoner abilities from the start but thanks to 8 years of trying to twist SMN into a warlock it allowed Blue Mage to temporarily fill that niche until the 6.0 rework brought Summoner back to reality. I'm good with wishing for full job BLU. Better than whatever this is.

[Auryan]

-snip-

A lot of content work like that. Staple content like MSQ, dungeons, etc are all predictable, but other contents like deep dungeon, Hildebrand, post-expansion side quests are left for a later, unknown date. They were still unsure when to release the Omega follow-up story literally days before 6.1's release. BLU getting a vague "sometime during the expansion" probably means 6.2.5 or 6.3.5.
And it's the 2nd time you've mentioned a high barrier of entry, but haven't describe said barrier. What are you referring to? You can unlock it after completing 2.0 and it's easy to level and gather most of the spells on your own. This is no Eureka/Bozja/Ultimates with 24 mans and savage raids to clear to get access.

Leveling isn't particularly fun, that isn't unique to BLU. You can just do it quicker with BLU than any other job. Whether it's spamming dungeons, grinding FATES, leveling Trusts, it all gets a bit tiresome. PvP might be an engaging alternative with the recent changes though.
You have a simplistic view of things. One moment you're mocking people for "defending" the limited job concept and the next you're blaming the same people for not making your dream job a reality. Maybe it didn't dawn on you that people can simply like content and not have it negatively affect you? I like BLU because I enjoy the content and not to spite the people that rage on it. Likewise, a lot of people didn't a give a single fuck about Viera and Hrothgar but were fine with the recent additions after people requested it.

Making content is taxing, but comparing BLU, that is essentially Wondrous Tails on a stick, to say Criterion dungeons and Ultimate, is just not at all comparable. And neither is the comparison between hairstyles and side content, they do not affect each other. You can have your newest Karen do and new self-harming spells all within the same patch.

[Reinha]

I think it's odd to talk about BLU becoming a full job. It already is. It stands on its own and does everything and more than other jobs.

What are you talking about, it can't even do basic content like main scenario quests LOL

Pushing for it to fit into all the typical daily activities and content is pushing it to a more plain and nerfed status. All the fun spells would surely be stripped in that situation: Ultravibration, Death, Missile, Doom, etc.

Only if you choose to equip the predetermined spell set that would be required to queue in DF. Anyone would be free to not equip it and ignore their dailies and weeklies in favor of grinding level 50 fates on BLU, or whatever else it is people do with this currently useless job those fun spells.