Are shards different?

[shadowclasper]

This can't be taken as a given. In fact, all evidence suggests otherwise: the WoL and the Crystal Exarch are confirmably more aetherically dense than those in the First (the Scions might, that one gets complicated and can't easily be argued either way), and yet neither of them are gods among men on the First. Ran'jit gives us a run for our money more than once, and the Exarch is no more powerful as a Trust partner than Lyna is.

The lack of voidsent on the Thirteenth might be a matter of the rifts that voidsent use to travel only existing between the Source and Thirteenth; or at least definitely not between the First and Thirteenth. Or it could just be that the First doesn't have the generations and multiple civilizations of institutional knowledge set in motion by immortal ghost wizards that the Source does in Allag and Mhach, so the people of the First just aren't at a level of knowledge where they'd do that as readily. (Especially because they've already got Sin Eaters all over the place, why do they need the Sin Eaters' goth cousins?)

I think it's a matter of capacity more than capability.

Ran'jit beat us in CAPABILITY. They could do more with significantly less, and, I would guess, probably would have lasted WAY less than we would have. The WoL could, in theory, outlast Ran'jit, but the issue is that Ran'jit, from decades and decades of training and refinement, had figured out how to do way more than we ever could in a single moment at this point in our lives. And the Exarch explicitly used up a massive amount of his power in maintaining the spells of the crystal tower itself I think.

[Cleretic]

I think it's a matter of capacity more than capability.

Ran'jit beat us in CAPABILITY. They could do more with significantly less, and, I would guess, probably would have lasted WAY less than we would have. The WoL could, in theory, outlast Ran'jit, but the issue is that Ran'jit, from decades and decades of training and refinement, had figured out how to do way more than we ever could in a single moment at this point in our lives. And the Exarch explicitly used up a massive amount of his power in maintaining the spells of the crystal tower itself I think.

Okay, then explain the bears. The wolverines, the fuath, the hobgoblins, the Ronkan constructs, the trilobites... I could go on but I think you get the idea.

I was using very direct comparisons, but your assertion that the reason Ran'jit could match us was because he was a master of combat requires every single thing on the First to also be a master of combat, because your logic would say that otherwise, the average level of things on the First would be significantly below the average level of all of Eorzea. And... well, it's not. Not one single part of Shadowbringers says that we are a superhero in this world of mere peons; in fact, everything says pretty much the opposite. We also have the persistently present example of Ryne; Ryne is also from the First, but spends most of Shadowbringers doing just fine alongside us. If your theory was true, she'd basically be a level 13 walking around in level 75 dungeons.

We've also got the flipside: when we go to Elpis, we fight just fine. The Studium fishing quests do confirm that even the regular wildlife there is more aetherically dense than in the present day, so by your logic it should be full of the hardest things we've ever had to fight... and it's just not. They're keeping pace with Thavnair's regular wildlife. Labyrinthos' lower levels are stronger.

The only source in the story declaring anything like 'more aether equals more better' are the Ascians; every single other piece of evidence that could be brought in says that's just not true, and given the fact we keep kicking the Ascians' asses I don't think even their evidence holds water. I think what actually happened there was that the Ascians latched on to aetheric density as an essentially arbitrary heuristic to declare themselves superior and all those sundered shards inferior. "We have to be better than these creatures, and we also have more aether, so clearly that's the reason our lives hold more value." Ancient techniques might be able to use more aether, but that doesn't seem to do them any good against us.

EDIT: Also, if this were true then voidsent would be completely nonthreatening, because they also come from a shard and so by your theory are lesser than Eorzean wildlife.

[Listrella]

clearly something way back in the past went different and sent the world in a different direction. Just look at our own history there an numerous points in which had things gone differently we'd be living in a very different world today.

[Lurina]

The writing surrounding aetheric density doesn't feel very consistent. The Ancients are established as having their extremely long lifespans, creation magic, and proportionally immense size on account of it, but despite having over 50% of their density, people on the Source are interchangeable from those on the shards. For a while, I thought the explanation might just be that rejoinings only increase the overall quantity of aether on the source and don't actually make the existing people more "complete", but then there was that line in 5.1 about how exceptionally aetherically dense the Scions are compared to the denizens of the First. But then... They're still able to use dynamis, regardless? And then you have that comment from Yoshi-P about how reborn Ancients will probably just have some extra special powers but otherwise be normal, and it's like. What was making them immortal, then, exactly?

It feels like the writers were going for more of a rough vibe off-the-cuff than something meant to be mechanically analyzed.

[Cleretic]

The writing surrounding aetheric density doesn't feel very consistent. The Ancients are established as having their extremely long lifespans, creation magic, and proportionally immense size on account of it, but despite having over 50% of their density, people on the Source are interchangeable from those on the shards. For a while, I thought the explanation might just be that rejoinings only increase the overall quantity of aether on the source and don't actually make the existing people more "complete", but then there was that line in 5.1 about how exceptionally aetherically dense the Scions are compared to the denizens of the First. But then... They're still able to use dynamis, regardless? And then you have that comment from Yoshi-P about how reborn Ancients will probably just have some extra special powers but otherwise be normal, and it's like. What was making them immortal, then, exactly?

It feels like the writers were going for more of a rough vibe off-the-cuff than something meant to be mechanically analyzed.

I mean, you should answer this one in a more figurative and allegorical sense above all; the Ancients are clearly intended to be godlike figures, so they have godlike physical qualities that disappeared once the Sundering happened and they weren't gods anymore. Similarly, we're not gods among inferior beings in Shadowbringers because that's just not the story they were telling. So any explanation kinda has to work backwards from those points; the story must work first and foremost, so whatever explanation we come up with must therefore allow both of those stories to still work first and foremost.

So with that, I think the best explanation I've got is that the Ancients were just literally a different species entirely, living in a completely different environment. Remember that their model is unlike any in the present world; they've got the 'hyur head, elezen frame' that the Garleans have, but without the third eye. (Also, they're enormous, there's that too.) Also keep in mind that even in the present world, lifespans range pretty hard; it's pretty well-known that elezen lifespan is 120 years and viera are in the 200 range, but as I recall miqo'te are the low end of the range at about 60. So there's not really anything dissuading the reading that they were just a different, now-extinct species. Perhaps one that's not really capable of being sustained in the less aetherically dense environment, so they gradually either died and were replaced by, as mentioned in a developer Q&A, sundered souls desperately yearning for aspects they either remembered having or want.

[Jandor]

The Ancients were just a different species, one that was 12 feet tall, lived a very long time, and could use creation magic to turn aether into pretty much whatever they wanted.

That last one is key I think, the Ascians rank aetheric density so importantly because it was very very useful to them.
It's much less relevant to the modern races because none of us can use it the same way.

[Lurina]

I mean, you should answer this one in a more figurative and allegorical sense above all; the Ancients are clearly intended to be godlike figures, so they have godlike physical qualities that disappeared once the Sundering happened and they weren't gods anymore. Similarly, we're not gods among inferior beings in Shadowbringers because that's just not the story they were telling. So any explanation kinda has to work backwards from those points; the story must work first and foremost, so whatever explanation we come up with must therefore allow both of those stories to still work first and foremost.

So with that, I think the best explanation I've got is that the Ancients were just literally a different species entirely, living in a completely different environment. Remember that their model is unlike any in the present world; they've got the 'hyur head, elezen frame' that the Garleans have, but without the third eye. (Also, they're enormous, there's that too.) Also keep in mind that even in the present world, lifespans range pretty hard; it's pretty well-known that elezen lifespan is 120 years and viera are in the 200 range, but as I recall miqo'te are the low end of the range at about 60. So there's not really anything dissuading the reading that they were just a different, now-extinct species. Perhaps one that's not really capable of being sustained in the less aetherically dense environment, so they gradually either died and were replaced by, as mentioned in a developer Q&A, sundered souls desperately yearning for aspects they either remembered having or want.

Though I don't dislike this explanation, it's inconsistent with Varis, Emet, and Alphinaud all taking it as a given than the denizens of the Source, once fully Rejoined, would be equivalent to Ancients in various conversations leading into and during Shadowbringers. You could brush one off as the character being unreliable, but all three saying the similar stuff does make it seem like that was what the writers intended at the time.

I get the allegory and think it works for what it is, but I think trying to rationalize it fully within the setting kinda a fools errand. It's obvious in retrospect - especially with the Famicon interview - that they were kinda writing the Sundering stuff by the seat of their pants, changing little bits of the framing and the facts as the narrative demanded and hoping people wouldn't nerd out about it.

Also, where did you get the thing about Miqo'te from? I thought the only player races they've stated to have anything but human standard lifespans were Elezen and Viera.

[EaraGrace]

My own conception of aetheric density is that while rejoining increases the density of one’s soul, the world itself still places those souls in bodies that remain 1/14 Sundered. We don’t have records after the calamities of people living longer lifespans, nor is their any indication that people are getting noticeably better at wielding magicks. When Yoshi P said that Emet and Hyth when reborn would just be a little better at things than everyone else, the implication seemed clear. The soul is Unsundered yet the body wouldnt be anything special. Combine that with Emets line about being stifled by his flesh (which he took from a random citizen of the 1st), the fact Ardbert was able to hold his own against us despite us being 7 times Rejoined, the Ascians and their “uplifting,” all the comments on our weak aether in Elpis and Amaurot etc. etc.

[Cleretic]

I unfortunately can't cite the miqo'te lifespan thing, it's just something I heard in RP from a friend who generally has their facts straight RE: miqo'te lore. I kinda take their word on that and move on, because my interests are elsewhere.

My own conception of aetheric density is that while rejoining increases the density of one’s soul, the world itself still places those souls in bodies that remain 1/14 Sundered. We don’t have records after the calamities of people living longer lifespans, nor is their any indication that people are getting noticeably better at wielding magicks. When Yoshi P said that Emet and Hyth when reborn would just be a little better at things than everyone else, the implication seemed clear. The soul is Unsundered yet the body wouldnt be anything special. Combine that with Emets line about being stifled by his flesh (which he took from a random citizen of the 1st), the fact Ardbert was able to hold his own against us despite us being 7 times Rejoined, the Ascians and their “uplifting,” all the comments on our weak aether in Elpis and Amaurot etc. etc.

Yeah, this one tracks for me; even if a fully unsundered soul is in a body on the Source, they're still in a body that's a fundamentally different species with different abilities, so they can't make full use of what the Ancients could. They'd also be being raised and learning how to manipulate aether in a world that's largely used to far smaller aether reserves. As comparison, imagine if random cars suddenly had nigh-infinite fuel; theoretically it's possible to make a car that can use that for amazing feats, but realistically you're gonna end up watching the same old Toyotas you always see doing basically the same stuff Toyotas always do, they're just worrying less about where the nearest gas station is.

[MikkoAkure]

I unfortunately can't cite the miqo'te lifespan thing, it's just something I heard in RP from a friend who generally has their facts straight RE: miqo'te lore. I kinda take their word on that and move on, because my interests are elsewhere.

I've heard the miqo'te thing over and over in RP and no one can point to where they got it from in-game and just reference another RPer or a discord. That's one of those "facts" that people often cite that has no actual reference in-game or in any interview or supplementary material but continuously gets passed along and repeated. Same with "mixed-race children are their mom's race", which was invented to explain why someone's half-elezen character looks like a 100% hyur.

Koji had said in an interview from 2014 that 4 of the 5 original races have the same lifespan as we do on Earth except for elezen, and that also explains why it takes a little longer for elezen to reach their adult height. Eorzea is a rough place though so we're still working with medieval period life expectancy for the average person. He said he doesn't expect the average person to live longer than 30s, 40s, or 50s.


Back on topic, I don't think the whole "rejoining of the soul" is very well explained in the game and it's painfully obvious it was tacked onto the plot after the fact. Every rejoining doesn't increase your lifespan or else we would have heard about it in records or after the most recent calamity or from the story that leads into the 8UC. You would think that a group of people plus G'raha would have made a comment about any sort of change within them after experiencing 2 calamities but we don't hear of it. We would also have known about it from G'raha and all of the Scions on the First since the people on the First are just 1/14th, but again nothing. But at the same time it's a bit weird that as soon as all the rejoinings are complete, we'd all be "whole" 20ft-tall Ancients again at the same power level. A part of me wonders if it's not that simple and that a lot of that idea is Ascian propaganda fed to Varis in order for him to do what they wanted him to do.