Should SE implement a way to poll the playerbase?

[Kabooa]

I disagree with this. You can’t just accept feedback blindly from players when it comes to how jobs function and play. You need to consider the player’s own experience and expertise in regards to it. For example: why should you take feedback on healers from someone who doesn’t play healers? What gives them the qualifications to speak on the healing role when they don’t even play it? How do you know that they know anything about it: how healers play; how healers function in FFXIV; how their toolkit works/flows together? How can you classify their feedback as “good” when they don’t play the role or have the experience with it?

This isn’t “gatekeeping” so much as it is listening to players who know what they are talking about versus those who don’t really have a horse in the race. I wouldn’t want the developers to listen to me with regards to tank feedback because I don’t play tanks and I cannot offer good advice on how they should be played, how their kits should function, etc.. I only know the bare basics of tanks, which I don’t consider enough to speak on their design or on changes to them.

I'll explain it quite simply.

I am a player with over a decade of MMO healing experience in more demanding games than this, and I don't play healers in this game as my main class. I play them competently enough - I can clear any of the savage tiers on them, with or without echo, just like I can with any other job in this game. If I whipped myself back into shape, I'd probably be just fine on them in ultimates too.

Should my feedback be preferred over someone else's? If someone mains healer, but doesn't touch beyond extreme, is their feedback more or less valuable than mine?

Who decides where we put the thresh hold for what feedback matters and what doesn't?

Using Kaiten specifically, Kaiten is not a Casual vs Hardcore, Skilled vs Non, End-game vs Housing enthusiast issue. Kaiten is an issue of GAMEFEEL, which has nothing to do with clearing ultimates, savages, or any of that.

So why should any one Samurai's opinion on Kaiten be worth less than another? Does the 4 year Samurai casual not get a say in how their class plays if a sweaty, hardcore, week 1 ultimate Samurai says "No Kaiten is fine"?

Once we say "Their feedback doesn't matter", it's only a matter of time until neither does yours, because most of us are far closer to the average player than we think.

[cjbeagle]

Who decides where we put the thresh hold for what feedback matters and what doesn't?

In theory that would be up to the devs who design the theoretical polls. Figuring out where to draw that line is non-trivial, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, even if it's as simple as "the player has samurai unlocked".

I can't think of a reason that someone who has never played samurai should be weighing in on something they aren't familiar with and/or have no personal investment in.

Depending on the specifics of the questions it might even make sense to exclude non-90s since their understanding of the kit is incomplete. For Kaiten specifically, it's acquired at level 52, so it wouldn't make sense to poll someone who has unlocked samurai but never bothered to level it at all, for example.

Given your point though, I do think I was mistaken in originally thinking that perhaps only people who main the job should be questioned since the issues at hand might be related to why a player stopped maining the job, or perhaps could cause them to start maining the job.

I have nothing against "the average player", but I do think it's important that the people whose opinions are being considered at least have a working knowledge of what they're weighing in on.

[HyoMinPark]

I'll explain it quite simply.

I am a player with over a decade of MMO healing experience in more demanding games than this, and I don't play healers in this game as my main class. I play them competently enough - I can clear any of the savage tiers on them, with or without echo, just like I can with any other job in this game. If I whipped myself back into shape, I'd probably be just fine on them in ultimates too.

Should my feedback be preferred over someone else's? If someone mains healer, but doesn't touch beyond extreme, is their feedback more or less valuable than mine?

I personally think that healing experience in other MMOs is irrelevant when it comes to providing feedback for the way healers function in this game. I don’t play other MMOs, but based on what I’ve read, the functionality of the role in FFXIV is different than it is in other games. If the survey was something along the lines of “what do you think we could add to the healing role to increase engagement”, then perhaps this experience would work in your favor. You could bring in what other games did with regards to healing and healing design and offer suggestions.

However, when it comes to the functionality of healers strictly in FFXIV, I think you need more experience in FFXIV. I don’t think experience in WoW or TERA or any other game will really help all that much if there is a lack in understanding when it comes to FFXIV healers.

Should you start playing healers, gain an understanding of them, and clear higher-end content on them, then I would say your feedback could be useful in polls regarding the healers and healing in FFXIV. Especially if we were to talk about things like FFXIV healer design and engagement. Experience matters depending on the context. If the survey was to ask about healing from a Savage or Ultimate perspective, then I wouldn’t say that the feedback of healers that don’t do that content is as important here compared to healers that participate in the content.

Who decides where we put the thresh hold for what feedback matters and what doesn't?

This is determined by the poll and its scope: questions and topics contained within would determine which feedback matters and which would be consider irrelevant to the premise being explored. Just like any research would be. Ultimately, the surveys would be a research study for the developers with regards to playerbase thoughts. You want data relevant to the research questions you are asking; you don’t want data that is extraneous or irrelevant.

Using Kaiten specifically, Kaiten is not a Casual vs Hardcore, Skilled vs Non, End-game vs Housing enthusiast issue. Kaiten is an issue of GAMEFEEL, which has nothing to do with clearing ultimates, savages, or any of that.

So why should any one Samurai's opinion on Kaiten be worth less than another? Does the 4 year Samurai casual not get a say in how their class plays if a sweaty, hardcore, week 1 ultimate Samurai says "No Kaiten is fine"?

I’m not going to provide answers based on Kaiten specifically because I don’t feel qualified to provide that. I’m not sure if you’re being rhetorical here, or if you want me to actively provide answers that I’m not qualified to give. However, I think that SAMs that don’t have an understanding or grasp on the job—I am talking about those hyper causal ones that barely know the rotation, play it freestyle, etc.—do not really have that much of a say. They aren’t playing the job correctly, so how much should they be considered when it comes to design? Especially over those that do have an understanding and can perform at an above average level or higher?

Once we say "Their feedback doesn't matter", it's only a matter of time until neither does yours, because most of us are far closer to the average player than we think.

My feedback already doesn’t matter for a lot of things in this game—I’ve already listed some examples in my replies in this thread where my feedback would be meaningless. And I am perfectly fine with that. I think my feedback is more valuable when it comes to healer gameplay and design versus something like tanks, casters, or melee gameplay/design; and that is because I play healers in all types of content and have invested time and effort into optimizing them. I might not be 100th percentile uber speedkill levels of perfect, but I don’t think I’m bad at them.

It seems like this is more of an issue of some people simply not accepting that it is okay to not have meaningful feedback on certain aspects of this game. I think everyone can have a voice—but not in regards to everything. And I think some just want their voices to be heard everywhere regardless if said voice is actually constructive or meaningful.

[Kabooa]

I personally think that healing experience in other MMOs is irrelevant when it comes to providing feedback for the way healers function in this game. I don’t play other MMOs, but based on what I’ve read.

That you can say this should be example enough.

You have no experience in those other games. Therefore you cannot say whether or not that experience is valid.

And just like that, you understand why we shouldn't have qualifications for feedback. Let the feedback speak for itself, no need to pin a badge with "Qualified" on it.

Snark aside.

I disagree that your feedback doesn't matter. I've personally been apart of several discussions in this forum that, coincidentally or not, have seen direct change as a result.

Now again - you can chalk that up to coincidence, as one of the few things you never want to do as a developer is credit a singular person or group of people for a change being made. That's a horrible way to inflate egos and engender expectations, but I'll point out some examples.

Camie's letter regarding crafting, and the megaletter in the Hand section, where a majority of the points were nearly one for one addressed with Ishgard.

The direction of Monk's class fantasy moving towards the Blitz system. Its implementation not withstanding, as that can be rather divisive.

Nearly every single one of my EW class wants has shown up in the PVP section of the game. Tank Superstates, Ranged cast time sniper shots, Seraph Strike on White mage, to name a few.

They are nothing if not cruel in their generosity.

[HyoMinPark]

That you can say this should be example enough.

You have no experience in those other games. Therefore you cannot say whether or not that experience is valid.

And just like that, you understand why we shouldn't have qualifications for feedback. Let the feedback speak for itself, no need to pin a badge with "Qualified" on it.

I don’t think you are understanding what I am saying, so let me provide you with an example to illustrate. Maybe I’m not being clear, and if so, I apologize. It’s been a long day at work.

If the poll was to ask about the design of FFXIV WHM, for example, how would experience with a TERA healer or WoW healer help you here? Especially if you have never played WHM in FFXIV. What insight would healers from those games give you on WHM? What would they tell you about the design of WHM? I don’t think they would be all that important since they aren’t FFXIV WHM. They’re healers from a completely different game. The experience there doesn’t matter when the questions are about this game and their job designs. Outside of something like “suggestions on how to improve FFXIV WHM”, and then maybe you could provide ideas from TERA healers or WoW healers in terms of gameplay as suggestions. At best, maybe you could make comparisons—but with little to no experience with WHM, how accurate would the comparisons be?

Experience does matter depending on the scope of the argument.

I don’t think feedback should just “speak for itself” when it is more than possible to provide feedback that is completely irrelevant to questions that could be asked. There has to be some sort of qualification, even if loose. I don’t think developers should listen to feedback from non-healers over healers, for example. Or non-tanks over tanks. Not when it comes to how the job is designed or how it functions. A lot of the healer discussions on here have non-healers coming in and saying healers are fine and they don’t see the problems—which, of course they wouldn’t. They don’t play them. Why should the developers say “Oh, well the guys who don’t play healers say healers are fine, so I guess they’re fine”? Do you see what I’m saying here? Do you see how that can cause issues?


I appreciate you saying that you don’t think my feedback is meaningless. That is very kind. However, I respectfully disagree. At least depending on what kind of conversation is being had here. If you want to ask me simple or general questions about things like tanks or other stuff I don’t partake in (like PvP), then I think I can have a valid voice there. Just speaking in general. But deeper conversations are beyond my expertise, and I don’t think I can contribute meaningfully to them due to inexperience. Which I’m okay with. Generally, I don’t want to speak on things I don’t know too much about, so that’s why I tend to have the positions and opinions I have, I guess.

[Kabooa]

Do you see what I’m saying here? Do you see how that can cause issues?

Yes.

And again - I was merely providing you with a counter argument - You cannot say that experience is invalid, because you do not have it. I do. therefore, my word holds more weight. I am more qualified. Your feedback should not be weighed as heavily as mine.

That is the problem, and why I said you let the feedback speak for itself. The above sentiment should be minimized if not avoided at all costs.

If the feedback is irrelevant - You don't listen to it. This is the misconception you have formed. All feedback being read isn't the same as all feedback being listened to, nor is it the same as all feedback being acted upon. Attempting to say some feedback matters more than others, based purely on who it's coming from, is the flaw.

And, to counter point that last question: I find it far more harmful to meme one thing taken out of context, to hyperfocus on it, to spam factually incorrect information to rile up people to cause far more issues than someone who dropped conjuror at level 20 posting "I think healers are fine.". That causes far more issue to your forum and its usefulness than a throw away post by your random Nald, Thal, or Bol.

[HyoMinPark]

Yes.

And again - I was merely providing you with a counter argument - You cannot say that experience is invalid, because you do not have it. I do. therefore, my word holds more weight. I am more qualified. Your feedback should not be weighed as heavily as mine.

That is the problem, and why I said you let the feedback speak for itself. The above sentiment should be minimized if not avoided at all costs.

If the feedback is irrelevant - You don't listen to it. This is the misconception you have formed. All feedback being read isn't the same as all feedback being listened to, nor is it the same as all feedback being acted upon. Attempting to say some feedback matters more than others, based purely on who it's coming from, is the flaw.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this. I don’t really know what else more to say on the topic other than that. You have your opinions on it, and I have mine.

I don’t think it’s a misconception to tune out feedback that is irrelevant. Relevance to a topic matters, especially when it comes to feedback. And I also think it does matter where and who the feedback is coming from depending on what you are seeking feedback for.

You didn’t answer my question about how experience healing in TERA or WoW would help you with regards to providing feedback on FFXIV healers. Especially for a player who hasn’t touched healers in FFXIV. You also aren’t providing examples of how that experience would be relevant and valid to FFXIV.

And, to counter point that last question: I find it far more harmful to meme one thing taken out of context, to hyperfocus on it, to spam factually incorrect information to rile up people to cause far more issues than someone who dropped conjuror at level 20 posting "I think healers are fine.". That causes far more issue to your forum and its usefulness than a throw away post by your random Nald, Thal, or Bol.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here? Are you saying that I’m the one memeing on something here? Because that isn’t a meme—it’s an actual response I have seen and responded to in healer discussions. I apologize, but I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Again, it’s been a long day, so maybe I’m just not getting it due to that.

[Kabooa]

I’m not sure what you’re saying here? Are you saying that I’m the one memeing on something here? Because that isn’t a meme—it’s an actual response I have seen and responded to in healer discussions. I apologize, but I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Again, it’s been a long day, so maybe I’m just not getting it due to that.

No, I'm not accusing you of anything.

I am speaking of specific things that still make the circles in the various subforums, that frankly do nothing but stomp out any actual discussion happening that could lead to positive action for a majority of players. Maybe that's a lofty expectation of the forums.

And, simply put - Whether or not I agree with you doesn't matter. Your feedback on the subject got to be seen. So did mine. So did CJs, and everyone else's. No one got filtered out at the basic level. No one was removed from the pool because they aren't a streamer with a follower threshold, no one got filtered out because they don't take part in the circus that is the parsing community.

Filtering yourself out is fine. Being filtered out is not. The difference is "Kabooa doesn't play Astrologian so he has no insight on Astrologian" vs "I answered yes to 'Can you fit the hours you've played Astrologian at level cap on one hand across all four expansions?' ".

[Semirhage]

I’m not sure what you’re saying here? Are you saying that I’m the one memeing on something here? Because that isn’t a meme—it’s an actual response I have seen and responded to in healer discussions. I apologize, but I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Again, it’s been a long day, so maybe I’m just not getting it due to that.

Kabooa likes to occasionally drop into the healer subforum to sneer at anyone repeating the "111111111" line, because he either poo-poos its existence or thinks it isn't a problem, and all we plebs who keep repeating that meme are the real problem with the role. Something something "whatever, your downtime rotation was never fun so you shouldn't care about it anyway". That's the "unproductive discussion enders" we're talking about.

[cjbeagle]

I think we're a little lost in the weeds - I think it's important to note that polls are generally structured something like this:

The removal of Kaiten from samurai was an improvement to the job's gameplay.
1. Strongly Disagree
2. Disagree
3. Neutral / Don't Know
4. Agree
5. Strongly Agree

An improvement would be to separate Neutral from Don't Know to prevent artificial emphasis on neutrality from subjects who simply aren't familiar with the topic, but regardless of that, the point is that polls generally don't afford room for nuanced responses - just pick from the multiple-choice options provided.

There's no room for commentary from whatever wealth of knowledge the player has, just "how much do you agree with this statement?" or a general negative-to-positive scale.