(6.1 Alliance raid spoilers) Speculation about the Twelve

[h-alpha]

There's been lots of speculation about the Twelve over the years, about what they are, whether they're even real, if they're based on Convocation members or Venat's followers or an amalgamation of unconscious memories and ideas that survived in the psyches of the sundered people...

Eventually we'll find out (hopefully?!) but after what we've seen in Aglaia, I'm curious to hear what people might be thinking/speculating about it all.

Like, apparently they're not primals? So now I'm wondering what they could be... surviving creations from pre-Sundering times, maybe? And what about the fact that their marks are seen in Omphalos, I've always assumed their symbols were created by people but does that imply that they weren't? Does the connection of Azem - Azeyma have any real importance or is it just the association of the sun in the subconscious minds of people without any real significance? Is there a reason for them being aligned with the 6 elements? Given that, does their origin have something to do with Etheirys itself? Am I asking far too many questions?

I don't expect to get answers to a lot of what I want to know but I'm at least excited to see what we do find out...

[Lihtleita]

i wonder if they have something to do with the six elemental brands on the moon.....

[Mixawaves]

I'm convinced they're legitimately Ancients in their 'true' form, a la Hermes in Ktisis, Erich in P1, and the first phase of the Hades fight.

Identity-wise, they're likely the members of Venat's group that we saw in the recording an Anyder. It's possible they're unsundered, since we know Venat had the ability to 'miss' someone during the process as she did with Emet. Following the decision to summon Hydaelyn and sunder the world, they were kept whole and tasked with watching over the mortal races and making sure Emet and crew didn't manage to kill us all during a Calamity. Of course, you'd wonder why 12 unsundered on the side of Light wouldn't just actively oppose the Ascians, but much can be hand-waved in the story by saying Venat (and by extension, her faction) knew history needed to play out as told.

If not that, I'd guess Hydaelyn made them in some fashion post-Sundering, based on the likeness of her group. I know they say they aren't primals, but I don't take that to mean they weren't the result of creation magic or the like; just that they absolutely weren't created by the mortal races praying, that way something like Ifrit is.

One related idea I really like is that Venat's group were other former Convocation members that gave up their seats but didn't return to the star. I think it would give a fitting common ground to explain why other Ancients would be anti-Zodiark, since continuing on was antithetical to the typical Ancient way of thinking.

[sidurgu-12]

i have a few based on if theyre telling the truth.

1. the lore talks about how they came from the whorl so im guessing theyve always been a part of the star and the sundering brought them closer to our reality.

or

2. the sundering split a pre existing god into the pantheon like how the star was split.

im not good at theories so this is the best i got so far.

[Kranel_San]

I had this thought they might be the members of the convocation of another city or ancient civilization that isn't Amaurot. The ruling system isn't exclusive to one civilization.

[MikkoAkure]

I think the thing that throws me the most and why I think they might not be related to the Ancients is that Byregot looks very much like a roegadyn. And if you decide to just chalk that up to artistic license and that he's just an overly-muscular god, then why does Rhalgr look like an elezen complete with the ears when none of his depictions nor even the statue that you fight him on have the same elezen ears?

[Lihtleita]

why does Rhalgr look like an elezen complete with the ears when none of his depictions nor even the statue that you fight him on have the same elezen ears?

notably Ramuh is also an elezen.

[Gemina]

I don't think they are former members of the convocation, or the rogue group the sided with Venat. Though the latter does hold some weight. They swear up and down that they are not Primals, and are gods true. Their existence did not come about through prayer, and crystals. Records of their worship go back to the the third astral era, but due to more primitive eras prior and other calamities taking place; it is not only possible, but likely that sightings and encounters took place even before that.

After the sundering, and before the first successful rejoining of a shard, there was just kind...nothingness. A time when Hydaelyn, the source and all 13 reflections were perfectly intact. Azeyma referred to us as their children, giving implication that they did indeed exist before man. It is possible that they came into existence during that gap before any calamities took place, and before losing the 13th to the void.

My thoughts wander on if they existed even before that. Before there was a Venat to even become Hydaelyn. They are aware of Hydaelyn, and also that the last of her aether has been dispersed. I don't think that Hydaelyn and Zodiark being destroyed along with their sudden appearance is a coincidence, but we are definitely not supposed to know why they have chosen to do so at this time. Seeking battle with Hydaelyn's champion is a little too obvious of a motive.

Also, it's very interesting to know that when bringing up the twelve that was summoned and who Gaius refers to in order to seal away Bahamut and protect Eorzea, they were just kind of like, "Yeah, sooooo that wasn't us..."

Also, Byregot taking the form of a Spriggy is so very fitting.

[sidurgu-12]

I don't think they are former members of the convocation, or the rogue group the sided with Venat. Though the latter does hold some weight. They swear up and down that they are not Primals, and are gods true. Their existence did not come about through prayer, and crystals. Records of their worship go back to the the third astral era, but due to more primitive eras prior and other calamities taking place; it is not only possible, but likely that sightings and encounters took place even before that.

After the sundering, and before the first successful rejoining of a shard, there was just kind...nothingness. A time when Hydaelyn, the source and all 13 reflections were perfectly intact. Azeyma referred to us as their children, giving implication that they did indeed exist before man. It is possible that they came into existence during that gap before any calamities took place, and before losing the 13th to the void.

My thoughts wander on if they existed even before that. Before there was a Venat to even become Hydaelyn. They are aware of Hydaelyn, and also that the last of her aether has been dispersed. I don't think that Hydaelyn and Zodiark being destroyed along with their sudden appearance is a coincidence, but we are definitely not supposed to know why they have chosen to do so at this time. Seeking battle with Hydaelyn's champion is a little too obvious of a motive.

Also, it's very interesting to know that when bringing up the twelve that was summoned and who Gaius refers to in order to seal away Bahamut and protect Eorzea, they were just kind of like, "Yeah, sooooo that wasn't us..."

Also, Byregot taking the form of a Spriggy is so very fitting.

Hopefully its not a "prove you dont need gods" story since they govern a wide range of things according to the lore.

[myahele]

The the popular theories I've heard thus far:
*The 12 are manifestation of The 12 Wonders in Elpis
*Ancient Auspice
*Created by Hydaelyn the way she made The Watcher
*Entelechy use "faith" energy as a power source

Disappointing they didn't mention Byregot and Azeyma in the post-raid quests especially since we went to Qarn. I guess they don't want to address the elephant in the room just yet.

Anyways thoughts on the Ktiseos Planisphere?

I see Azyema, Azem, Menphina w/o the smaller moon, Althyk and Rhalgr

There's some slight differences and I'm not familiar with symbolism since Azem symbol is based on alchemical/astrological sun symbol, maybe the others are too?