Handling Cheaters Gracefully vs Hardline ToS + Questionable legality of bans

[StealthPaladin]

Using Discord as an example of third-party tools is just as disingenuous ...

I mean, from the start when I brought up Discord I said almost as much myself. It is not likely to be banned but is bannable definitionally by the ToS. If you agree then that pretty much proves my point that the ToS needs clarity. It penalizes players who play by the book to have such vague qualities defined as bannable -- and in part that's why I say in-game consequences would alleviate many player concerns.

However while there is something ridiculous about it, it isn't right to call that disingenuous. There are very valid criticisms of Discord use. Some don't have access to or are not allowed to voice chat, it's not par of the game, it can easily make or break difficult content. Huge competitive advantage in Frontline and raiding -- plus it allows people to circumvent FC size limits, orchestrate disruptive behavior, harass gamers off-platform, modifies the execution of the game and a host of other problematic things it enables. We just think it is "normal" and therefor "ok" but that doesn't actually follow

Now that said; there has been talk that SE may change that stance because of cheating in CC. IF THEY DO, THEN.. it would probably have to apply to Discord too. To be fair it certainly would have to apply to ALL 3rd party tools and there have been notices suggesting that COULD happen.

At the end of the day, there's a massive problem with Square Enix's hands-off stance that they've held and the player base has largely self-moderated ...

Everything you said from there onward; totally agree. I am just asking people what they think it should be ideally. Not much can be done to help them other than attempting to compile a reasonable view of what players WANT and then identifying, of that, what is viable as a solution. Doesn't mean SE will do anything about it, but if they ever did, then at least they'd know what the player base felt about addons and have a little headstart on brainstorming.

Many people lately have voiced a concern that they don't feel they can speak on here or even like anything about addons due to risking their account. My primary hope in voicing this was not that they do everything like I want, though that would be a great outcome lol. My goal is to convey the opinion and invite the opinion of others.

We all know the realities and difficulties of an addon system -- but not having one apparently has many problems too, and those problems also cost money. I believe releasing an SDK will cost less money, but ultimately that's not majorly important. Just knowing what players would LIKE to see lets SE decide if anything of our wishes are feasible for themselves

[Larirawiel]

Using Discord as an example of third-party tools is just as disingenuous as that time Yoshi-P used Excel or a Calculator as an example of a third-party tool. These are completely egregious examples and don't reflect the reality of the situation.

To be fair, Discord, Teamspeak & Co. have more impact on the gameplay than maaaaany other interface addons, even in WoW. You will always have a grey area on this.



Cheers

[Katt_Felista]

As a personnal experience, I really loved Crystalline Conflict and evolving through it, until i kept going from gold 4 to gold 1 and stumbling upon incredible amount of cheating starting when you get platinum players in the mix. Killing the drive and want for it, i was very hyped the first week, this many cheaters just really make it unfun.

[Johners]

However while there is something ridiculous about it, it isn't right to call that disingenuous. There are very valid criticisms of Discord use. Some don't have access to or are not allowed to voice chat, it's not par of the game, it can easily make or break difficult content. Huge competitive advantage in Frontline and raiding -- plus it allows people to circumvent FC size limits, orchestrate disruptive behavior, harass gamers off-platform, modifies the execution of the game and a host of other problematic things it enables. We just think it is "normal" and therefor "ok" but that doesn't actually follow

Now that said; there has been talk that SE may change that stance because of cheating in CC. IF THEY DO, THEN.. it would probably have to apply to Discord too. To be fair it certainly would have to apply to ALL 3rd party tools and there have been notices suggesting that COULD happen.

To be fair, Discord, Teamspeak & Co. have more impact on the gameplay than maaaaany other interface addons, even in WoW. You will always have a grey area on this.

Voice chat is a massive part of online game across MMOs and every other genre. While there are moderation issues with how some people choose to use these platforms, they're ultimately for the platform holders to deal with and not for Square Enix.

If Square Enix would crack down on using platforms like Discord in a third-party tools crackdown, when no other major MMO does, they can kiss so much of the player base goodbye. The high-end PvE and PvP community, that largely uses voice chat in any organised and consistent group/static, aren't just going to play without it. Not to mention they could just use Discord from another device like their phone and SE wouldn't even know.

Voice chat is not a grey area of the terms of service and it's absolutely the worst thing that Square Enix could choose to fight. I feel like some people are using the "Discord is a third party tool" argument as deflection because there's actual grey zone third-party tools like XIVAlex and NoClippy which can be used to cheat, in theory, even if most people only use it to make the game playable with higher ping/latency to the servers.

[ZeraSkiratea]

Only thing I'd counter is Discord DOES break the current ToS as a 3rd party tool, though true I don't believe that is the intent of the rule at all. However Discord does interface with the game process to provide overlays and show status especially. Currently that is bannable, but they look the other way as you point out for many types of mods.

Ok... please show me the EXACT sections of the ToS you are refeering to that would make discord "a bannable 3rd party app" if you are refeering to the "prohibited action" lists of "behavior that affects game balance"

"- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game."



You are grossely misinterpreting what "interacting with the game" means
interacting with the process to get its name and runtime(aka discord status) isnt "interacting with the game" its "interacting with the process" if interacting with the process itself is illegal then... litteraly any program ever would be banned as almost any programm interacts with the process list, and by extension FFXIV


The overlay is similar, it dosnt interact with the game, at MOST it interacts with the process directly(and at that point we need to REALLY talk definition of "interacting"), it interacts with OS level features and hooks into the DirectX/OpenGL calls




"the game" is not identical to "the process"


~~what is interesting tho, i saw a lot of people(not here) argue that ACT is "technicaly fine as long as its not used to insult people as it just reads the network logs and not anything in the game itself" however, by the definition of "prohibited actions" ACT 100% analyizes Game data(however it technically dosnt interact with the game or process itself)~~

[Aelin_Ashryver]

They have not cared about people using Gshade etc to date, they wont going forward either. PvP cheaters need their bans and they should be putting time into reviewing the logs of matches to do so.

Bunch of pointless fear mongering for no reason. Cry if it actually happens.

[Valfreyja]

They're already extremely lenient in the fact that they have stated they will not crack down on any client only mods as long as they have no impact on other players and don't offer any inherent advantage. It's already don't ask don't tell, you can mod your game all you want just don't use your mods to ruin someone else's experience or talk about them in-game. It's a pretty lenient and clear set of rules imo.

Uh...what?

Didn't Yoshi P come out in a thing and specifically stated to not use mods, they were against the ToS?
Where have they stated that they aren't going to crack down on client mods?

I've never heard anything like that. Just the Yoshi P. thing, because people were like, making porn with the game.

[Valfreyja]

The fact that now strikes decay over time just gives them even more leeway to abuse the system.

You do realize that if you are given a suspension, it literally takes 7 to 10 years of perfect behavior before your "points" are gone and you won't get a stiff punishment for any infraction?

Dunno what this three strikes thing is. AFAIK, you can get a warning, suspension, or a ban.

If you get a warning for something, then you have to be perfect and not break any rules for 3-5 years or more, before things are okay.
IF, on the other hand, you break another rule before then? You will likely get slapped with a 3 day or 10 days suspension no matter how minor it is.

If you get that suspension, like I said, the decay is 7 to 10 years, minimum.

The decay thing is nice...but be realistic. Most aren't going to pay any attention to it. Because it takes far too long to actually decay to where you aren't under threat once more. And one of the things they said when it was announced was that it was being put in place so that "people wouldn't feel as if they had nothing left to lose".

But with that amount of time, it doesn't quite work out that way.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Uh...what?

Didn't Yoshi P come out in a thing and specifically stated to not use mods, they were against the ToS?
Where have they stated that they aren't going to crack down on client mods?

I've never heard anything like that. Just the Yoshi P. thing, because people were like, making porn with the game.

That’s probably what they said, and yes it’s against ToS. But the thing is they would have to insert a detector into game file to scan players’ processes to prove & this is actually illegal in some country. They will not, and cannot do this without alienating some countries, period. This adds to another reason why this still has not happened yet.

Henceforth the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’-policy.

[Valfreyja]

That’s probably what they said, and yes it’s against ToS. But the thing is they would have to insert a detector into game file to scan players’ processes to prove & this is actually illegal in some country. They will not, and cannot do this without alienating some countries, period. This adds to another reason why this still has not happened yet.

Henceforth the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’-policy.

Ah, I see.