The changes to Trick Attack impacts every class, and not in a good way.

[Jaquan]

I'll be a bit cynical here... So which of those classes (bar healers since at that point we'll probably take anything if it means we have something to do other than the barebone DPS rotation) is willing to take a dip in their aDPS to boost others? Genuinely asking here because most often I see Ninja Changes viewed by this prism and not the class itself (other than having more stiff Ninki management once that becomes a thing)

[Rongway]

We won't be getting another melee DPS next expansion. Whatever job they introduce will have to compete with the casters or the physical ranged, not Ninja. That argument makes no sense at all.

3 rangers + 3 casters : 2 strikers + 2 slayers + 2 scouts

But the roles are phys ranged, magic ranged, and melee so right now we're 3:3:5 and should get more casters or rangers.

And yet most raids are built with mechanics for two ranged DDs and two melee DDs, and 1:1:2 ≡ 3:3:6, so another scouting job would not be unreasonable.

[Hanayumi]

For sure getting another scout job at some point, it does not need to be tied to rogue or nin at all, the job just needs to be able to use the gear. Current guesses are gambler, corsair, swashbuckler, but a vast majority of folks just want an advanced version of rogue as nin just doesnt appeal to them in terms of asthetics.

[baklava151]

I'll be a bit cynical here... So which of those classes (bar healers since at that point we'll probably take anything if it means we have something to do other than the barebone DPS rotation) is willing to take a dip in their aDPS to boost others? Genuinely asking here because most often I see Ninja Changes viewed by this prism and not the class itself (other than having more stiff Ninki management once that becomes a thing)

At the end of the day you're talking about numbers that you'll only see with a third party website and tool. Like that's great if it ultimately got a buff in 6.1 but who really cares, NIN was performing just fine in savage content beforehand so it didn't really need it. I play NIN pretty casually but I enjoyed playing the one class who could throw up a one minute buff for other classes to take advantage of, and of course while playing other classes being able to dump resources into that buff when it was up. That's something much more tangible during gameplay than colored numbers that I'll never bother looking at anyways.

[SiriusBreeze]

Revert 6.1 changes to Samurai and Ninja!

[Jaquan]

At the end of the day you're talking about numbers that you'll only see with a third party website and tool. Like that's great if it ultimately got a buff in 6.1 but who really cares, NIN was performing just fine in savage content beforehand so it didn't really need it. I play NIN pretty casually but I enjoyed playing the one class who could throw up a one minute buff for other classes to take advantage of, and of course while playing other classes being able to dump resources into that buff when it was up. That's something much more tangible during gameplay than colored numbers that I'll never bother looking at anyways.

In the end we all are talking about numbers. The whole topic is about those numbers and how badly other classes suffer because they lost their odd minutes damage buffer. Personally I like those changes. Primarily at level 50-60 I like having that additional button that actually does something all while being stronger if a bit more selfish about it.

[baklava151]

In the end we all are talking about numbers. The whole topic is about those numbers and how badly other classes suffer because they lost their odd minutes damage buffer. Personally I like those changes. Primarily at level 50-60 I like having that additional button that actually does something all while being stronger if a bit more selfish about it.

OP's originally point was about gameplay and describing how TA existed as a way for classes to break up the time between two minutes and give them a spot to dump excess resources as well as lining up with certain one-minute abilities to give them more oomph. Which yeah affects numbers but not in any significant way as opposed to the gameplay impact.

[aloneatsea]

On the usage of Trick Attack by certain jobs, SGE wouldn't burn Toxikon II as it has equal potency to their filler, it's Phlegma III that they would burn under Trick Attack, and they should have at least one for every application. For AST, Earthly Star happens to also have a cooldown of 60s, which lines up well. For BRD, they generate enough gauge for an Apex/Blast Arrow for every Trick Attack application.

Small corrections aside, I agree with OP, Trick Attack was a valuable resource for every job, not just the ninja, removing it made no sense and also made gameplay more boring to optimise.

Confirming the loss of optimizatoon for MCH as well. I'd always have an 80 gauge queen + Reass Chain Saw + HC window exactly at the odd minute mark for the extra aDPS. Sadly it's gone now.

Thank you for your corrections! I've updated my leading post accordingly.

I'll be a bit cynical here... So which of those classes (bar healers since at that point we'll probably take anything if it means we have something to do other than the barebone DPS rotation) is willing to take a dip in their aDPS to boost others? Genuinely asking here because most often I see Ninja Changes viewed by this prism and not the class itself (other than having more stiff Ninki management once that becomes a thing)

aDPS rewards you for playing into raid buffs, so absolutely 0 jobs would suffer an aDPS loss for playing into Trick Attack. In fact, removing Trick Attack is an indirect nerf to many classes in terms of aDPS.

Numbers, however, are really not my concern. I made this thread to express my concern about the changes to Trick in a more holistic way. Centering concerns around Ninja didn't capture the full changes, and led to arguing over "these changes are good because Ninja is stronger now!!" which is, in my opinion, both shortsighted and rather irrelevant to the quality of any particular job. Numbers are the easiest thing to adjust when it comes to job changes.

Centering the changes to Trick Attack around how it affects how every class plays, I hope, will encourage more thinking about rotations, gameplay feel, and synergy between classes -- the very reason cited for this change in the first place.

[YuuYun]

Revert SAM and NIN changes and make raiton combo for flexible. This is the fix they need to do. I know my RDM static member was happy about the NIN changes because he doesn't have to change the rotation to adjust to TA windows but yea....

[Jaquan]

Thank you for your corrections! I've updated my leading post accordingly.



aDPS rewards you for playing into raid buffs, so absolutely 0 jobs would suffer an aDPS loss for playing into Trick Attack. In fact, removing Trick Attack is an indirect nerf to many classes in terms of aDPS.

Numbers, however, are really not my concern. I made this thread to express my concern about the changes to Trick in a more holistic way. Centering concerns around Ninja didn't capture the full changes, and led to arguing over "these changes are good because Ninja is stronger now!!" which is, in my opinion, both shortsighted and rather irrelevant to the quality of any particular job. Numbers are the easiest thing to adjust when it comes to job changes.

Centering the changes to Trick Attack around how it affects how every class plays, I hope, will encourage more thinking about rotations, gameplay feel, and synergy between classes -- the very reason cited for this change in the first place.

You're not wrong. Except from my noobish perspective it's concern for relatively small side - end game raiders. Statics that actively work together. In those groups? Sure Old Trick Attack would do wonders ensuring that Ninja's personal DPS loss (and whether we like it or not Suiton -> Trick attack was a personal damage loss for Ninja). In other groups? Random parties that clear other content like older Raids, Extremes etc? You're gambling. You hope your party will notice your damage buff and adjust accordingly and it's not always going to happen. In general for the part I'm mostly concerned with as new player? The change is a plus. Partially because it patches the glaring hole in Ninja's skill progression. Like seriously you get Mug at level 15 and it remains a dead skill for 2 enitre expansions and a majority of base MSQ of the third. I get that you at max level don't care as you view the class as a whole but from progression point of view? It's a big plus