How would it feel if instead of kaiten, shinten was gone?

[Ralt21]

just curious. i am on the boat that both these skills are important to sam kenki gauge.
but i do wonder not only how the job feels but how the people would react if shinten was gone instead.

[xAFROx]

Possibly the same if they were to have shifted potencies around like with the kaiten removal. Otherwise, for me personally, I typically only used it as a buffer to Yukikaze.

I was one of the suboptimal idiots that used kaiten on Gekko and Kasha, apparently.

[AsiTsurugi]

just curious. i am on the boat that both these skills are important to sam kenki gauge.
but i do wonder not only how the job feels but how the people would react if shinten was gone instead.

Like you say, they are both important for the job feel and Kenki management, so I imagine a similar uproar would happen if Shinten was removed. Moreover, Shinten is also needed in order to make sure you do not waste kenki because you can only use so many Kaitens on iaijutsus a minute. I would be happy if they added more tools that made Kenki management more interesting, on top of kaiten and shinten, as opposed to dumbing it down starting in 6.0 with the change of Ikishoten's cooldown to 2 minutes, reducing Kenki cost of Senei/Guren and moving kenki generation from positionals to flat Kenki generation from combos.

[ThorneDynasty]

Meh, Shinten is just a whatever gauge spender. Kaiten actually interacts with your GCD rotation. Spending your gauge by buffing all your normal GCDs with Kaiten could serve the exact same purpose for your burst phase.

[butchersblock]

That would result in spamming Kaiten on Gekko/Kasha which wouldn't be that much better than what we have currently. If they removed Shinten to introduce a new, different spender then I'd be fine with it.

[CelestiCer]

Removal of either is bad

Kaiten should consume 20 Kenki before every " Higanbana, Midare Setsugekka and Ogi Namikiri and Tenka Goken for AoE " to amp-up the hit. Excess Kenki will be awkward to manage with the only other skill being Hissatsu: Gyoten on a 10 second recast only draining 10 Kenki and 25 from Hissatsu: Senei, creating awkward moments where where we will Kaiten buff skills we wouldn't normally buff i.e " Gekko/Kasha/Yukikaze " etc.

With the current available skill-set and rotation, Kenki management with some form of Depth requires " both ". 1 without the other will just feel unnecessarily Hallow.

[Ransu]

One would assume if kaiten stayed and shinten was removed that kenki would also go away and kaiten would just become a CD as well as guren and senei. At that point I wouldn't really be all that remiss about it honestly because shinten is kind of whatever. Its animation isn't that great and it doesn't really add any value like kaiten did. That said, I'm not exactly in favor or removing it either. I'd like to see it get upgraded to a new animation and I'd like to see kenki have more value as well so we're not just spamming shinten all the time and I'd obviously would like to see kaiten returned and the auto crit garbage to go away.

[FrogBiscuit]

I fully admit to have no attachment or love for shinten. The animation is disruptive to the SAM kit in my opinion and doesn't fit in at all. And the move is also the unfortunate target of ire in the current moment due to the loss of Kaiten.


That said, I'll reiterate what others have posted as well and state that even though my attachment to kaiten in comparison to shinten is like night and day, both kaiten and shinten serve a specific purpose and the removal of shinten would have resulted in issues as well.

Not the exact same issues as Kaiten, but there would be issues. Kaiten was the strategic use of kenki, while shinten was the kenki resource dump. Either served a specific purpose in which the other doesn't directly or effectively replace.



That stated, I am all for them adjusting the Shintent animation to be more visually fluid in the SAM rotation.

Meh, Shinten is just a whatever gauge spender. Kaiten actually interacts with your GCD rotation. Spending your gauge by buffing all your normal GCDs with Kaiten could serve the exact same purpose for your burst phase.

It could, and number wise may not really be any different...

But I personally would feel kaiten would lose some of its impact (game play feel wise) if it was just a automatic press for every single thing (if kaiten was actually permitted to, and that was what you were suggesting).

While I don't think would have been nearly as grating as shinten spam. I don't believe kaiten spam would be great either.


IMO, the situation of variance and options in Kenki spenders itself is what makes the SAM kit and the kenki gauge interesting and have meaning. Removal of either skill takes away from that regardless.
I just believe Kaiten shines as the most interactive and core skill of the kenki move list...

[cjbeagle]

I don't remember who the kendoka was, but if they read this maybe they can enlighten me.

I don't know what this technique is called, but it's basically a horizontal cut at the opponent's torso as you dash "through" (past) them to their left, followed by a covered turn as a blind guard.

That's probably a shite description, but hopefully people know what I'm talking about (wishful thinking).

I kinda like the idea of that concept replacing Shinten.

Since such an ability would displace you to the other side of your target, you'd have to be prepositioned to end up where you want to be - this could mean avoiding using it while behind a boss to avoid getting cleaved by moving in front of it, could mean intentionally moving in front of it so you end up behind it if using prior to Gekko, or could mean using it specifically from a flank to end up at the other flank if using prior to Kasha. Depending on timing, it could effectively be a variable positional (or not matter at all, depending on timing) - could also be a cool way to eek out some quick positioning, especially on larger bosses, and be used specifically for its movement facet in some cases. Thoughts?



EDIT: Still dunno what it's called, but found a single decent example: https://youtu.be/A1hUUwp4Kkw?t=460

You can see how the technique in this [unfortunately only one] example strikes at the torso while moving past the opponent and does a blind guard as he turns back to square with his opponent. I'm imagining a strike that dashes through the enemy at Gyoten speed with this technique as the basic idea.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

To be honest, removing Shinten would be an extremely bad idea.

In fact you generate just what you need in order to use Kaiten, This will lead to some "Dark Arts" like spam button to upgrade other skills which don't make much sense.

Kaiten was removed, and the majority of the player base tend to vouch against it. Even if I understand the point behind that, we must not forget that 6.2 may be a Samourai Rework patch.

Do they need to supress Kaiten in 6.1 just like that ? Hard to say if you take everything into account. It could be "No", because they could have done that in 6.2 by reworking the Samourai compltely. It could be "Yes", in order to get feedback about the difference between Samourai With Kaiten, and without.

Honestly, I think they could've done that using an other way. Maybe by asking the community directly like : "Hey samourai, Kaiten is difficult to work with in the dev point of view, what can we possibly do to get that skill off ?"