Healers need an overhaul

[Raven2014]

so now my question is what his alts name? if you look him up on lodestone he only has level 50 jobs and conjuror up to 15 (probably just so he could crosspath into PLD) so either tell us your alt or you have no idea what you're talking bout my guy

So, my question for you is ... what will it do for the current argument? I can already guess the reason you ask for it, and your assumption of what is will be. If I can get a signed statement from the people here that upon seeing my performance, they will defer to my reasoning and change their opinion, sure I won't mind tell you who to look for. In fact, I can even change my profile character to prove that it is me, and like I said, I played on 4 of them. I probably cleared more fight than most people just for that reason.

But ... will that happen? Because I sincerely doubt you're seeking to establish proper credential for an discussion in good faith. So ... why would that matter? I doubt anyone here will change their thinking even if they don't see what they're assuming.

Let's start with you my guy, tell me: if hypothetically on the assumption that if it turns out I'm a purple on several different healers class in multiple tiers of savage, that I also have some ultimate clears under my belt ... will there be any change at all in how you're looking at what I've been saying so far? And if not, then what is the point of you asking then?

You know what, the good news is that you never really had to if you were a good enough healer.

That's the thing, I don't mind if I'm the only healer in the group and have to do all the healing. Like, if my boss come to me and say "you're going solo on this project, get it done", I wouldn't mind at all. But imagine they tell "you and MintnHoney will be co-operate on this project" ... and I end up have to do it all myself ... I hope you don't need me to explain why I (or anyone) would have problem with it?

The solo heal DSO video actually excite and inspire me, and I already plan one day I will try for it, after I clear it normally.

Indeed, Grandpa Renathras

Well, at the very least I can admit you're far better than me at making fun of people talking to you.

[pikalovr]

So, my question for you is ... what will it do for the current argument? I can already guess the reason you ask for it, and your assumption of what is will be. If I can get a signed statement from the people here that upon seeing my performance, they will defer to my reasoning and change their opinion, sure I won't mind tell you who to look for. In fact, I can even change my profile character to prove that it is me, and like I said, I played on 4 of them. I probably cleared more fight than most people just for that reason.

But ... will that happen? Because I sincerely doubt you're seeking to establish proper credential for an discussion in good faith. So ... why would that matter? I doubt anyone here will change their thinking even if they don't see what they're assuming.

Let's start with you my guy, tell me. On the assumption that if it turns out I'm a purple on several different healers class in multiple tiers of savage ... will there be any change at all in how you're looking at what I've been saying so far?




Well, at the very least I can admit you're far better than me at making fun of people talking to you.

because you can't talk about how a role is supposed to feel or how it plays at all levels of gameplay when you haven't even reached level 50 on a healer. hence why i said whats your alts name. cause the character you're on rn like i said only has conjuror at 15. which to alot of people immediately discredits alot of what you have to say, it's just common sense. if you have alts with fully leveled healers then sure you're points would receive more validity. but if anyone can look at the character you're talking on and see basically no healers leveled. it's gonna be harder to validate your points since you talk about how the role is supposed to feel/play at all levels of gameplay.

[Lilapop]

Then surely you understand that usually not everything in the kit will be used in a fight, or as little as once per fight. Can't spend CDs on damage that isn't going out. And even if it is, congratulations, you're solo healing now. Hope your cohealer doesn't get too mad I guess.

sounds like we're having two entirely different conversations here? i never claimed every single fight required every single spell to be used.

[Sunhwapark]

we have skill floors and skill ceilings for a reason.

At this point I'm convinced the developers are trying to fuse the ceiling & floor together.

[Lilapop]

many players also look for cast times or think that they need to be at 100 % all of the time. Or think that they can ignore mechanics, or that healers can ignore mechanics ( healer privilege does not exist sadly) or think that healing range is infinite. I could go on. Yes I absolutely agree that healers can make mistakes, but sometimes it's on the other people in the party as well.

i absolutely agree, worse party members (people ignoring mechanics, dps taking aoes to the face etc.) gives "more" to heal, and that seems to be as close as "more" healers will get. definitely not 100% all the time, for sge i'd wager for the average person 50%+ is good, whm due to heal potency can dip a bit under if they're comfortable and able to ping pong health without a wipe. if a healer is being dumb and ignoring mechanics, well, thats on them.

[pikalovr]

At this point I'm convinced the developers are trying to fuse the ceiling & floor together.

oh i guarantee you they are why do you think they're homogenizing party burst windows and slowly removing crit variance

[Lilapop]

If you're 'letting half the party die' because you did one dps spell, either you or the other party members are doing something VERY wrong. What I'd wager you're doing is overhealing. You probably don't have faith in your tanks and DPS so you heal them a lot more than you need to, thinking that you're preventing them from dying when you really aren't. Healers and tanks are both designed for the healer to be doing DPS spells often. In fact, a good healer will cast MORE damage spells than healing spells in the typical instance.

If you're healing when you don't need to, you're objectively a bad healer, and if you're choosing to do this intentionally, you're objectively a bad player. (EDIT: When I say this, I mean CONSISTENTLY doing this. Obviously even the best healers make mistakes)

i haven't now nor have i ever advocated for overhealing at any point. but there are real situations that other party members ARE doing things very wrong (ignoring mechanics, dps taking aoes to the face because ???), while everyone overheals a bit sometimes, personally i'd rather lose a dps spell (when referring to non savage/ultimate content) and overheal rather than underheal, wipe, and have to go again. unpopular take i'll assume. however i can understand higher standards for savage/ultimate content (little to no overhealing whatsoever, everyone knowing their stuff)

[Raven2014]

because you can't talk about how a role is supposed to feel or how it plays at all levels of gameplay when you haven't even reached level 50 on a healer. hence why i said whats your alts name. cause the character you're on rn like i said only has conjuror at 15. which to alot of people immediately discredits alot of what you have to say, it's just common sense. if you have alts with fully leveled healers then sure you're points would receive more validity. but if anyone can look at the character you're talking on and see basically no healers leveled. it's gonna be harder to validate your points since you talk about how the role is supposed to feel/play at all levels of gameplay.

You're avoiding my question. So far, I'm not under the impression that any of the response so far was because "I disagree with this guy because he does not even have a healer leveled!". I think people are simply stating their own personal-standalone opinion on the matter, completely independent of whatever credential I have or may not have. I had not looked anyone credential here, so I had never used it to base off my talking point, and I doubt anyone else do either.

Like I said, if by providing credential meaning people suddenly agree with me, I'll do it. But I doubt that has ever matter. But now that you brought it up, I'm sure some will use it as convenience deflection point for disagreeing with me.

[Lilapop]

and what is the DPS excuse if the healer is out DPSing them? I'm honestly curious on how you'd explain that, because if they are being healed through unavoidable damage, and otherwise not failing mechanics, can you explain how a healer is going to out _DPS them?

Can you point to anyone asking in future being able to out-dps any DPS? No, you can't.

Can I point to "old games" where a healing class can actually be competitive with a DPS class or job, why yes I can provide examples, so can other people, and we have in other threads on these forums. So there goes your "old days" argument- not that we are in the "old days" anymore. Coming from someone who has definitely been playing since the "old days" I can change with the times and with the context of the game that I am currently playing, times change, as do player communities.

yeah, in a perfect world a healer being healed through any unavoidable damage, staying alive, optimally, almost... perfectly... playing their class shouldn't get out-dpsed by a healer. shouldn't. yet more often than not that can be the reality? it's not that rare or that unfound? as for change, all change isn't exactly good change. having healers focus on dps before healing just to be "contributing" isn't exactly positive change.

[MintnHoney]

That's the thing, I don't mind if I'm the only healer in the group and have to do all the healing. Like, if my boss come to me and say "you're going solo on this project, get it done", I wouldn't mind at all. But imagine they tell "you and MintnHoney will be co-operate on this project" ... and I end up have to do it all myself ... I hope you don't need me to explain why I (or anyone) would have problem with it?

That would depend on a number of factors, wouldn't it?
For example, you're thinking to yourself "damn, that MintnHoney, they never heal, they just keep doing whatever they're doing. They're wasting everyone's time being a healer if they didn't want to heal, they should have just queued as a DPS instead since they don't respect MY healer role."
Now from my perspective: I have DPSManiac, the lvl 90 BRD, taking 1000 damage out of their possible (let's say) 39,000 along with 5 out of 6 of the non-healer party memebers, and, before I can even consider if they're about to eat a raidwide or not, you've already cast Horoscope > Asp. Helios > Asp. Benefic > Celestial Opposition, and the BRD is "saved" thanks to your heroic gesture of casting a bunch of spells unnecessarily.
At this point, I don't see the need to cast my spells or use my OGCDs, because that would just be a waste of actions and massively unnecessary overhealing. So I don't, and, instead, turn my attention to things that could use it.

So, when "our boss" comes up to ask what happened, and you point at me and say "MintnHoney never healed, they made me do all the healing and they were being a meanie weenie DPS focused meanie-face. " I'll look at them and say "why did you think putting two people with the exact same, overperforming function into the same project, that only really required maybe half of our individual effective output in the first place, would have little-to-no overlap with their abilities and, consequentially, would lead to one or both of us either fighting for relevance or one of us sidelining ourselves while the other performs our functions as intended?"


And when they say "you should have said something to each other and split the duties 50/50" neither of us would likely have anything to say about that.

Well, at the very least I can admit you're far better than me at making fun of people talking to you.

Your hair color was the main inspiration, but I admit, sometimes I'm just a visionary who enjoys long walks on the beach at night and is kind to animals. It's just one hat of many.