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  1. #251
    Player
    EmpyreanHelios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    64
    Character
    Quies Animus
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 76
    I love it when people who obviously don’t know anything about playing a healer comes in to give their expert opinion.

    Like okay. No one here is gatekeeping opinions, but if your take is so far off the mark? Don’t get mad that people explain to you why your idea won’t help.

    “Just increase the tank buster damage.”
    I-
    (15)

  2. #252
    Player
    Aarchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    Old Sharlayan
    Posts
    37
    Character
    Archie Heios
    World
    Sagittarius
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik View Post
    Well yeah, sorry for coming here and asking this angry echo chamber to have something that actually can replace the system for the entire game before the scream it has to go NOW. Common sense is dead I guess, but keep being mad.
    It's not like Healers have been complaining for years non-stop and being ignored in all levels right?
    SE definitely didn't have the time to think about it, and now we want something more immediate! We might have lost the common sense indeed!
    (17)

  3. #253
    Player Darthgummibear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Posts
    852
    Character
    Angrypillow Duvall
    World
    Marilith
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    I main AST. I love the healing kit to death and if they gutted that I would be heartbroken. A lot of the problems people have with healing stem from not having to heal enough outside of dealing with pugs. Maybe if bosses had more group/raid-wide damage that was unavoidable.

    Having said that, it would be nice to do more than watch the "Fall Malefic" castbar so much. Maybe a second dot to manage, with dots having a chance to proc a refresh on one of the two draws. I have the other healers as well and all of them would benefit from a similar action playing off abilities already in the kit. Just one extra dot with an ability proc. Simple, easy, and would alleviate a lot of the angst regarding this issue.
    (2)

  4. #254
    Player
    Ravor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Location
    Grindania
    Posts
    180
    Character
    Ravor Elliard
    World
    Atomos
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 100
    I think the problem with healer is not that the dev didnt have the ability to make it more complex or interesting, its more of trust issue, the dev didnt believe that most player will play healer if healing is harder than how it is today, like, how many healer actually remember to use lucid dream in order to sustain their MP anyway? Sage has many damage stuff to do and shielding will also reward you with extra damage kit, they should make all healer have fun stuff like this....
    (1)

  5. #255
    Player
    Rilifane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    1,580
    Character
    Esther Harper
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravor View Post
    I think the problem with healer is not that the dev didnt have the ability to make it more complex or interesting, its more of trust issue, the dev didnt believe that most player will play healer if healing is harder than how it is today, like, how many healer actually remember to use lucid dream in order to sustain their MP anyway? Sage has many damage stuff to do and shielding will also reward you with extra damage kit, they should make all healer have fun stuff like this....
    Sage doesn't has "many damage stuff" though.
    Dosis = Malefic/ Glare/ Broil
    EDosis = Combust/ Dia/ Biolysis
    Phlegma has no 1:1 equivalent but is similiar enough to Assize/ Star/ ED as the "You push it roughly 1-2 times per minute" extra dps button.
    Toxikon is just an instant Dosis in single target and thus a movement tool, not a damage tool. Only 3 guaranteed free stacks per fight, generation of any additional stacks is rare and the result of a last result healing. It's more like a really, really bad consolation prize than a reward. Even worse than Misery was pre 6.1.
    Pneuma is used as a heal, not a damage button because it's the same potency as Dosis.

    Sage is the exact same one button spam that other healers are. The only difference is that it flows better than the other healers. They tried to sell it as the "exciting dps healer that heals through damage with a kit full of cool stuff!" but in reality it's the exact same.
    (17)

  6. #256
    Player
    Silver-Strider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,753
    Character
    Silver Strider
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik View Post
    Well shit, feel free to draw up an entire new system for healers then and submit it to their inbox, complete with how it would affect tanks, dps, and over all difficulty of every encounter in the game. You'll probably have a lot of fun because coming up with something that works is not easy. Well, not my problem, I'm a dps, just wanted to pitch in my 2 cents, have fun
    We don't need to come up with anything because there was already a system that worked for all of ARR/HW/SB and SE decided to trash it all.
    The problem with HW WHM was that it struggled with MP. They fixed that with Thin Air (before the nerf) but then they made the god awful SB Lily System that held WHM back. While they did remove some skills in SB, we still had some semblance of a rotation and the jobs still required some thought to play. All that needed to be changed was WHM's Lily System. That's it. Everything else, the removal of DoTs and other useful support skills like Virus, Disable, Eye for an Eye, etc. was unnecessary.

    Here's what happened with Healers from SB to ShB.
    The combined potencies of jobs with 2 DoTs (WHM and SCH) were combined into a singular DoT with a duration of 30s to equal the same damage as that of the 2 DoTs.
    They took Virus from Healers to give to DPS with Feint/Addle (Addle even has the audacity to use the same icon, just color coded Purple instead of Green).
    They turned Selene into a glamour of Eos for no reason.
    They made Royal Road into Divination and destroyed all the synergy the job had with their cards by removing the Time Mage aspects of the job so it became a carbon copy of WHM but with Solitaire.

    All for the sake of making the role accessible to people that couldn't be bothered to play healers to begin with, like yourself.
    (12)

  7. #257
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Lavender Beds, Ward 13, Plot 41
    Posts
    7,339
    Character
    Hyomin Park
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 92
    Quote Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik View Post
    Well yeah, sorry for coming here and asking this angry echo chamber to have something that actually can replace the system for the entire game before the scream it has to go NOW. Common sense is dead I guess, but keep being mad.
    Healers have been making suggestions on how to improve engagement on the role for years. YEARS. It started off with us actually asking for more things to heal. But we can’t have that because what if a healer feels bad or stressed out? Not even in the supposed hardest pieces of content in this game can we have an increased frequency in healing. And if there’s such a skew of healing casts to damage casts in Savage and Ultimate, all the content beneath that will suffer even more.

    So now we ask for more engaging DPS systems on our jobs. Because let me tell you: it is incredibly boring to press one button 100 to 150 times OR MORE in any given encounter. I run on auto-pilot when I’m playing healers. That’s how mind-numbing it can be. The only engagement I get is from parties that are clown fiestas. And it’s sad that I have to hope for such encounters just to feel engaged in my role. I don’t see tanks or DPS looking for such things in regards to their engagement.

    But in the end, it isn’t our job to come up with a fix for this. We can make suggestions—but it is not up to us to come up with the ultimate solution. That falls on the developers. If they want to take some of our suggestions and feedback and utilize that, I’m sure healer mains would be thrilled about that. But them fixing healers is not reliant on us at the end of the day.

    And to be frank with you, healer mains have a right to be mad. We’ve been dumbed down for years. We can’t have more healing requirements. We apparently can’t have more DPS buttons. We can’t have engagement in ALL TYPES of content, and instead get told to go do the hardest content in the game if we want some modicum of it. Despite Ultimate being something a lot of players will not tackle and try; and being a piece of content that not everyone is able to complete. And ALL of our complaints seem to fall on deaf ears. So of course, we are a bit upset about that. And it is within our right.
    (18)
    Last edited by HyoMinPark; 04-30-2022 at 10:34 AM.
    Sage | Astrologian | Dancer

    마지막 날 널 찾아가면
    마지막 밤 기억하길

    Hyomin Park#0055

  8. #258
    Player
    einschwartz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    387
    Character
    Ein'sf Florr
    World
    Kujata
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Darthgummibear View Post
    A lot of the problems people have with healing stem from not having to heal enough outside of dealing with pugs. Maybe if bosses had more group/raid-wide damage that was unavoidable.
    This is why I love healing Tower of Zot bosses (particularly the first and last). They throw dots at individual players, then raidwide, and then mechanics which require you to be mobile. A shame none of the expert dungeon is similar to the Magus Sisters.
    (10)
    Tumblr: taildippedinpaint

  9. #259
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,607
    Character
    Noah Orih
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik View Post
    Well yeah, sorry for coming here and asking this angry echo chamber to have something that actually can replace the system for the entire game before the scream it has to go NOW. Common sense is dead I guess, but keep being mad.
    Everyone's responding that it's not the player's responsibility to fix healer design, which is true, but also people have been proposing healer reworks on here for years. There's a popular threat in the healer forums about videos dedicated specifically to fixing the healer jobs. Are any of them perfect solutions? No but they sure as hell are better than the dumpster fire that is healing currently. What you're asking for has literally been done to death on the forums and you're here saying "I don't see you trying to fix anything!"

    Reading through your arguments, it's basically "I'm a DPS player who doesn't know anything about healing. Why are you guys upset? I'm sure everything's fine and you're all just being dramatic. Why don't you come up with a better system if you know so much?"
    (10)

  10. #260
    Player
    Punslinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    126
    Character
    Adela Skychaser
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 93
    Quote Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik View Post
    What I'm saying is that either they increase healer dps by giving it more offensive skills or split the dps is already has into more skills. First option requires further balancing, since if you up the dps in any content, esp endgame, you also need to up the boss if you don't want to nerf it by increasing the dps, and in the second they work goes into making it more complex for the sake of increasing complexity.
    The first option requires Square to add a percentage to the HP for each boss. Not exactly rocket science, that.

    The second option is what you don't seem to see the value of. "Making it more complex for the sake of increasing complexity" is precisely the point, as it will widen the gap between the skill ceiling (occupied by those who can handle the additional complexity) and the skill floor (occupied by those who can't).

    Let's take your argument in reverse and apply it to another job: why does BLM need to press a zillion buttons when its only job is to DPS? All that Astral Fire/Umbral Ice phase dancing, managing Enochian, watching for Thundercloud and Firestarter procs, weaving Xenoglossy, etc., is just "complexity for the sake of increasing complexity." Why not bake all of BLM's damage into a Thunder and a Fire that it just spams over and over, in the same 21111111 "rotation" that healers have to put up with?

    (This is the part where you move the goalposts and say, "b-bbb-bb-b-but healers have so much healing to do, they can't focus on teh deepz!")

    Quote Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik View Post
    Again I say, I simply don't see the demand for it to be worth so much work and time sunk into it. Feel free to prove me, and more importantly square, wrong.
    Translation: "Healer mains are second-class citizens who don't deserve developer attention."

    Quote Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik View Post
    Square balances around endgame content tho, and you can't do that without healers.
    This is a video of P1S, a current Savage raid, being cleared without healers. You were saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik View Post
    How, for instance, do you prove this isn't just people who have done endgame content long enough to get so good at it that they get bored of it?
    Reading comprehension is haaaaaaarrrrrrd:
    Quote Originally Posted by Punslinger View Post
    I don't raid Savage. I quit healing three years ago because it was incredibly boring. Dungeon bosses are a joke. 24-mans only need healing when it's an absolute clownfest. MSQing as a healer is a prescription-strength sleep aid (you can't heal mobs to death, y'know).
    (19)
    "Once upon a time, you were the based healer, who could carry any tank through the largest of pulls! Now you're just here because the Duty Finder said you have to be." - Lucy Pyre

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