Healers need an overhaul

[pikalovr]

so now my question is what his alts name? if you look him up on lodestone he only has level 50 jobs and conjuror up to 15 (probably just so he could crosspath into PLD) so either tell us your alt or you have no idea what you're talking bout my guy

[Raven2014]

so now my question is what his alts name? if you look him up on lodestone he only has level 50 jobs and conjuror up to 15 (probably just so he could crosspath into PLD) so either tell us your alt or you have no idea what you're talking bout my guy

So, my question for you is ... what will it do for the current argument? I can already guess the reason you ask for it, and your assumption of what is will be. If I can get a signed statement from the people here that upon seeing my performance, they will defer to my reasoning and change their opinion, sure I won't mind tell you who to look for. In fact, I can even change my profile character to prove that it is me, and like I said, I played on 4 of them. I probably cleared more fight than most people just for that reason.

But ... will that happen? Because I sincerely doubt you're seeking to establish proper credential for an discussion in good faith. So ... why would that matter? I doubt anyone here will change their thinking even if they don't see what they're assuming.

Let's start with you my guy, tell me: if hypothetically on the assumption that if it turns out I'm a purple on several different healers class in multiple tiers of savage, that I also have some ultimate clears under my belt ... will there be any change at all in how you're looking at what I've been saying so far? And if not, then what is the point of you asking then?

You know what, the good news is that you never really had to if you were a good enough healer.

That's the thing, I don't mind if I'm the only healer in the group and have to do all the healing. Like, if my boss come to me and say "you're going solo on this project, get it done", I wouldn't mind at all. But imagine they tell "you and MintnHoney will be co-operate on this project" ... and I end up have to do it all myself ... I hope you don't need me to explain why I (or anyone) would have problem with it?

The solo heal DSO video actually excite and inspire me, and I already plan one day I will try for it, after I clear it normally.

Indeed, Grandpa Renathras

Well, at the very least I can admit you're far better than me at making fun of people talking to you.

[pikalovr]

So, my question for you is ... what will it do for the current argument? I can already guess the reason you ask for it, and your assumption of what is will be. If I can get a signed statement from the people here that upon seeing my performance, they will defer to my reasoning and change their opinion, sure I won't mind tell you who to look for. In fact, I can even change my profile character to prove that it is me, and like I said, I played on 4 of them. I probably cleared more fight than most people just for that reason.

But ... will that happen? Because I sincerely doubt you're seeking to establish proper credential for an discussion in good faith. So ... why would that matter? I doubt anyone here will change their thinking even if they don't see what they're assuming.

Let's start with you my guy, tell me. On the assumption that if it turns out I'm a purple on several different healers class in multiple tiers of savage ... will there be any change at all in how you're looking at what I've been saying so far?




Well, at the very least I can admit you're far better than me at making fun of people talking to you.

because you can't talk about how a role is supposed to feel or how it plays at all levels of gameplay when you haven't even reached level 50 on a healer. hence why i said whats your alts name. cause the character you're on rn like i said only has conjuror at 15. which to alot of people immediately discredits alot of what you have to say, it's just common sense. if you have alts with fully leveled healers then sure you're points would receive more validity. but if anyone can look at the character you're talking on and see basically no healers leveled. it's gonna be harder to validate your points since you talk about how the role is supposed to feel/play at all levels of gameplay.

[Raven2014]

because you can't talk about how a role is supposed to feel or how it plays at all levels of gameplay when you haven't even reached level 50 on a healer. hence why i said whats your alts name. cause the character you're on rn like i said only has conjuror at 15. which to alot of people immediately discredits alot of what you have to say, it's just common sense. if you have alts with fully leveled healers then sure you're points would receive more validity. but if anyone can look at the character you're talking on and see basically no healers leveled. it's gonna be harder to validate your points since you talk about how the role is supposed to feel/play at all levels of gameplay.

You're avoiding my question. So far, I'm not under the impression that any of the response so far was because "I disagree with this guy because he does not even have a healer leveled!". I think people are simply stating their own personal-standalone opinion on the matter, completely independent of whatever credential I have or may not have. I had not looked anyone credential here, so I had never used it to base off my talking point, and I doubt anyone else do either.

Like I said, if by providing credential meaning people suddenly agree with me, I'll do it. But I doubt that has ever matter. But now that you brought it up, I'm sure some will use it as convenience deflection point for disagreeing with me.

[pikalovr]

You're avoiding my question. So far, I'm not under the impression that any of the response so far was because "I disagree with this guy because he does not even have a healer leveled!". I think people are simply stating their own personal-standalone opinion on the matter, completely independent of whatever credential I have or may not have. I had not looked anyone credential here, so I had never used it to base off my talking point, and I doubt anyone else do either.

Like I said, if by providing credential meaning people suddenly agree with me, I'll do it. But I doubt that has ever matter. But now that you brought it up, I'm sure some will use it as convenience deflection point for disagreeing with me.

and i'm saying it's a perfectly valid counterpoint. how can you know what healers are supposed to play/feel like when you yourself never even put in the time to hit 90 or even 50 which would've been the cap at your time, saying it's not a valid counterargument cause nobody brought it up is stupid. people are actually willing to give more leniency on you potentially having leveled a healer to 50/90 cause your main class on here is a DOH, which alot of people set their things as. plus just cause they didn't bother to look up your level doesn't mean it makes your points any less invalid. especially when talking to people who HAVE leveled to 90 on healers, or are willing to look up levels. cause you genuinely sound like you have no idea what healing is actually like with a semi decent group or healing in general, you just see a few bad examples and correlate that to everything

[MintnHoney]

That's the thing, I don't mind if I'm the only healer in the group and have to do all the healing. Like, if my boss come to me and say "you're going solo on this project, get it done", I wouldn't mind at all. But imagine they tell "you and MintnHoney will be co-operate on this project" ... and I end up have to do it all myself ... I hope you don't need me to explain why I (or anyone) would have problem with it?

That would depend on a number of factors, wouldn't it?
For example, you're thinking to yourself "damn, that MintnHoney, they never heal, they just keep doing whatever they're doing. They're wasting everyone's time being a healer if they didn't want to heal, they should have just queued as a DPS instead since they don't respect MY healer role."
Now from my perspective: I have DPSManiac, the lvl 90 BRD, taking 1000 damage out of their possible (let's say) 39,000 along with 5 out of 6 of the non-healer party memebers, and, before I can even consider if they're about to eat a raidwide or not, you've already cast Horoscope > Asp. Helios > Asp. Benefic > Celestial Opposition, and the BRD is "saved" thanks to your heroic gesture of casting a bunch of spells unnecessarily.
At this point, I don't see the need to cast my spells or use my OGCDs, because that would just be a waste of actions and massively unnecessary overhealing. So I don't, and, instead, turn my attention to things that could use it.

So, when "our boss" comes up to ask what happened, and you point at me and say "MintnHoney never healed, they made me do all the healing and they were being a meanie weenie DPS focused meanie-face. " I'll look at them and say "why did you think putting two people with the exact same, overperforming function into the same project, that only really required maybe half of our individual effective output in the first place, would have little-to-no overlap with their abilities and, consequentially, would lead to one or both of us either fighting for relevance or one of us sidelining ourselves while the other performs our functions as intended?"


And when they say "you should have said something to each other and split the duties 50/50" neither of us would likely have anything to say about that.

Well, at the very least I can admit you're far better than me at making fun of people talking to you.

Your hair color was the main inspiration, but I admit, sometimes I'm just a visionary who enjoys long walks on the beach at night and is kind to animals. It's just one hat of many.

[Raven2014]

and i'm saying it's a perfectly valid counterpoint.

No, you are deflecting my main question, again. So you claim the reason people not agreeing with me right now is due to my lack of credential, I'm asking if I provide it, what will change? Everyone had stated their opinion under no uncertain term, I seriously doubt even if I turn out to be a triple legend with 99% log, the people who are dismissing/making fun of/disagreeing with me will suddenly turn around and say "hum, that guy actually have point!".

For the record, I'm under no illusion that I will change anyone opinion here, I merely state my opinion on the matter just like how everyone state theirs. You're badly mistaken if you think I'm trying to do more than that. I don't care about having the last word here or to assert my stance.

And when they say "you should have said something to each other and split the duties 50/50" neither of us would likely have anything to say about that.

Oh, you think I haven't tried? Given my resentment of the matter, it'll be an easy guess for you how that often turn out. I still remember this answer a 99% stone mage gave me when I asked him/her to heal more: "why should my parse suffer for doing more than the minimum"? And that answer was the norm, not an exception.

That is why my dear, you will understand why I enjoy the current system far more than the era that some of you consider more "interesting". I'm not old enough to be called granpa, but I'm not young either. The current design is inch perfect for me, not just because the classes itself feel right for me, but mainly because it took out a lot of the shenanigan that I used to have to deal from others. It's bit cliche to say, but "I'm too old for that ****".

[MintnHoney]

Oh, you think I haven't tried?

I think you tried, and I think you were met with a few instances and gave up, much like how I've tried the same approach, was met with "you don't pay my sub, I'll heal however I want" and have, since, decided that I'll allow people to simply play as they please.
On the other hand, I'm also not expecting perfection from PUGs, and my time spent with organized groups has proven coordination to be extremely simple and straight-forward.
Even to this day, despite rust and general disinterest in playing, I'll run things with friends and find myself co-healing with one in particular, and we just wing it and cover for each other as necessary, allowing for our quirks to compliment each other rather than work against each other.

So, basically, I have bad and good experiences under my belt, and I'm choosing to pull from all of them, and I believe you've had bad experiences and are just choosing from them as your basis while ignoring the rest.

[Raven2014]

So, basically, I have bad and good experiences under my belt, and I'm choosing to pull from all of them, and I believe you've had bad experiences and are just choosing from them as your basis while ignoring the rest.

Not at all. If I have such negative prognosis as you claim, I doubt I would play as much as I do. Like I said, I play on 4 toons, clearing savage on all of them every week, I already BiS out more jobs than I care to play, even dublicate BiS on the same job on different toon. Yet I still run them? Why? Because I actually enjoy PF very much these days. Correct me if I wrong, but I feel like currently I'm both enjoying both my jobs and my parties far more than the people who are arguing with me right now. In short, I think I had played, and playing way too much for you to dismiss it as "selective from a few bad memory". So from my POV, claiming you're more positive than me is a really hard sale.

Of course I have good memories as well. My previous statiic co-healer was a very conservative one, the kind that give you the license to DPS as much as you want and she cover the heal. My current one is even more amazing. "You will always get the heal you need" is what she told me during the interview. And by that, she didn't mean the bare minimum required by the fight either. She cover people mistake, recover run at amazing efficiency ... yet she still push into the top tier DPS almost effortlessly. So I'm fully aware those kind of healers exist, both in term of skill and mentality. But rest assure, I play more than enough to distinguish between what is the norm and what is the exception.

If even only half of the PF can provide similar co-healers to me even only half of the time, then sure go nut. Give healer 10 more DPS buttons, I'll even be supporting that idea. But ... get real.


My argument simply base on my observation, and It may be a bit presumptuous of me, but I think I work with a much larger sample size than the average player. And even more presumptuous is I would like to think Yoshi-P and his team had the same observation as I did years ago. After all, the way they have been "fixing" that issue over the last 2 expansion fit me to a T.

So feel free to dismiss and make fun of my opinion, it's no big deal. I have no need for agreement on the forum, in game is where it counts. And unless you're not being honest to yourself, you would know the current reality match whose opinion.

[MintnHoney]

If I have such negative prognosis as you claim

You are, indeed, coming from somewhere negative. No amount of personal enjoyment you have with the role or personal achievements you can claim to have will mask the fact that all you've used as a reasoning for your opinion is that you've experienced bad things. But that's not a fair and solid basis, it's just an understandable one.

So feel free to dismiss and make fun of my opinion, it's no big deal. I have no need for agreement on the forum, in game is where it counts. And unless you're not being honest to yourself, you would know the current reality match whose opinion.

I would be happier knowing that your need to come off as taking this in stride and, therefore, being in a better and healthier state of mind about this was not supposed to be illustrated by you're interchanging basic socialization with the state of a video game, but I suppose this is about the most I could ask for after the failed attempts at garnering support by badgering others in here and on the healer forums.

Nevertheless, your words are as inconsequential as your earlier arguments; we do not like the current state of healers, hence this and the other threads. Whether you were here to try and argue against it or not, healers would still need an overhaul.