Healers need an overhaul

[Raven2014]

the reason cohealers dont heal is the same as it has always been: heals dont feed into dps, dps doesnt feed into heals.

And this right here is a splendid example of what I meant by "mentality". Even for WHM, there is nothing inherently wrong with the class, it simply has a different healing style to other healers. The problem with WHM has nothing to do with its ability to heal the party, or even contributing meaningful DPS (without going muppet on it) comparing to other healers, the issue is the player compare their WHM to other WHM on FFlog, that have always been the one, and only problem. WHM has no defficiency from a gameplay perspective, its only flaw is that if you want to have a good FFlog, you have to be selfish. That, and you will hear me say it again and again, has nothing to do with the game.

Outside of Ultimate and first week Savage, there is no content that requires healer to squeeze out every last bit of DPS for a clear. The reason for healer greed is because if the next FFlog ranking requires 90 Glare, so healer don't want to cast only 89 and will push for 91 Glares even if it means jeopardizing the party. This is a problem self-invented by the community due to the internet culture when people care about impressing a bunch of people they will never meet in real life.


You know what, what you said is exactly why SGE is the best designed healer class, since there is almost no trade off between healing and DPSing. But still, that doesn't mean I want all healers to be rework similar to SGE. People complain about class homogenizing because "developers are lazy", yet I think it is the players who are the main reason for that trend, because they can't stand one class having "different" performance at the cost of gameplay diversity while such difference made next to zero difference in game.

[IDontPetLalas]

And this right here is a splendid example of what I meant by "mentality". Even for WHM, there is nothing inherently wrong with the class, it simply has a different healing style to other healers. The problem with WHM has nothing to do with its ability to heal the party, or even contributing meaningful DPS (without going muppet on it) comparing to other healers, the issue is the player compare their WHM to other WHM on FFlog, that have always been the one, and only problem. WHM has no defficiency from a gameplay perspective, its only flaw is that if you want to have a good FFlog, you have to be selfish. That, and you will hear me say it again and again, has nothing to do with the game.

Outside of Ultimate and first week Savage, there is no content that requires healer to squeeze out every last bit of DPS for a clear. The reason for healer greed is because if the next FFlog ranking requires 90 Glare, so healer don't want to cast only 89 and will push for 91 Glares even if it means jeopardizing the party. This is a problem self-invented by the community due to the internet culture when people care about impressing a bunch of people they will never meet in real life.


You know what, what you said is exactly why SGE is the best designed healer class, since there is almost no trade off between healing and DPSing. But still, that doesn't mean I want all healers to be rework similar to SGE. People complain about class homogenizing because "developers are lazy", yet I think it is the players who are the main reason for that trend, because they can't stand one class having "different" performance at the cost of gameplay diversity while such difference made next to zero difference in game.

Or maybe people :
- don't only do group content?
- like to do both DPS and healing - one does not necessarily negate the other.

You are saying that there is some e-peen measuring mentality at work that leads to people expecting that they squeeze every last bit of DPS and not healing people. That doesn't sound like 95% of my co-healers- rather the reverse, a fair percent over heal. I wouldn't be at all surprised that some healers may underheal- just like I wouldn't be at all surprised if some don't DPS- nor would they if more options for DPS were added.

Also, i haven't seen anyone asking for healing to "squeeze every last bit of DPS" we don't even ask DPS to do that in most content aside from Ultimate and Savage - so I really don't know why or where this idea came from

[Deveryn]

Or maybe people :
- don't only do group content?
- like to do both DPS and healing - one does not necessarily negate the other.

You are saying that there is some e-peen measuring mentality at work that leads to people expecting that they squeeze every last bit of DPS and not healing people. That doesn't sound like 95% of my co-healers- rather the reverse, a fair percent over heal. I wouldn't be at all surprised that some healers may underheal- just like I wouldn't be at all surprised if some don't DPS- nor would they if more options for DPS were added.

Also, i haven't seen anyone asking for healing to "squeeze every last bit of DPS" we don't even ask DPS to do that in most content aside from Ultimate and Savage - so I really don't know why or where this idea came from

The mentality exists. People tell newer healers to do things like slot lots of DH and focus dps. It results in some rather poor healers that show up in roulettes, stressing out all kinds of people. I remember one WHM in particular. I was tanking Vanaspati and they would blow their afflatus stacks between pulls to charge lily and have nothing to really sustain me. Even in other areas, like BLU content, there are those that insist it should be ALL about dps and there should be little help for the person tanking. Again, I found myself in a bad situation, with wipe after wipe because there was no way I could hold up to all the damage going out.

[Raven2014]

Or maybe people :
- don't only do group content?

I don't think I ever said anything about people doing outside of group content. But if they join a group as a healer, I would expect them to ... heal?

- like to do both DPS and healing - one does not necessarily negate the other.

And did I say they do?

You are saying that there is some e-peen measuring mentality at work that leads to people expecting that they squeeze every last bit of DPS and not healing people.

When an AOE coming up, the party is not full, and you still see Broil/Glare/Melafic going off. Or when you have to burn through your kits healing succession mechanics without any help ... I would like to hear a different explanation if you have one.

i haven't seen anyone asking for healing to "squeeze every last bit of DPS"

And ... that's exactly the problem? Indeed nobody is asking the healers to do that, the content definitely doesn't need the healers to do that. What, you think when tank/DPS or even healing, I prefer the healer to DPS as much as possible over keeping the group alive? In case you missed the point, the healer is doing for the shake of their parse over the group's well being, that's the point.

[Silver-Strider]

I don't think I ever said anything about people doing outside of group content. But if they join a group as a healer, I would expect them to ... heal?



And did I say they do?



When an AOE coming up, the party is not full, and you still see Broil/Glare/Melafic going off. Or when you have to burn through your kits healing succession mechanics without any help ... I would like to hear a different explanation if you have one.




And ... that's exactly the problem? Indeed nobody is asking the healers to do that, the content definitely doesn't need the healers to do that. What, you think when tank/DPS or even healing, I prefer the healer to DPS as much as possible over keeping the group alive? In case you missed the point, the healer is doing for the shake of their parse over the group's well being, that's the point.

Here's the thing though. A lot of content doesn't require healers to heal all that much. Unless the group is terrible to a point of forcing you to carry several people thru it, there is hardly any healing that is realistically needed anymore. The party doesn't NEED to be 100% for most mechanics nowadays. Hell, you can keep people at 60% and more likely than not, they'll still survive the next Raid Wide attack.

Casual content has become so mind numbingly easy that the healer could die at the start of a fight and you could still possibly clear it with just residual healing from the Tanks and liberal applications of any self sustain tools a job currently has access to.

Had a friend go on their SGE to do whatever the dungeon 6.1 added is called. They died on the 2nd and last boss when the boss' were still somewhere in the ballpark of 60-70% Health remaining. The party was a GNB, BLM and myself as a MNK. We killed both bosses while my friend sat outside the arena.

My FC was helping people that have NEVER done a savage raid clear P1S and P2S with just a SGE solo healing.

Ultimate Fights are being cleared with 1 healer while STILL using their 1 DPS spell the overwhelming majority of the time.

Healing in this game has become little more than a bad joke, all because people complain whenever they get a bad healer from time to time but when a Bad Tank or DPS commit war crimes no one bats an eye.

[Raven2014]

Here's the thing though. A lot of content doesn't require healers to heal all that much.

That's the thing though, it's a problem with the whole design. If healing is already so insignificant in this game, the solution is ... let's make even less of a focus? This sound like the joke of "a solution to the poor is to let's kill all the poor".

I already said I don't oppose to changing healers, what I'm opposed is the way people think it should be fixed. Otherwise, why not just go for something even more extreme? Get rid of the healing role all together, give everyone else two more self-healing. After all, if it's truly most healers already had such a strong distaste for healing, and seem to prefer DPS much more ... that'll work out perfectly fine won't it?

[Silver-Strider]

That's the thing though, it's a problem with the whole design. If healing is already so insignificant in this game, the solution is ... let's make even less of a focus? This sound like the joke of "a solution to the poor is to let's kill all the poor".

I already said I don't oppose to changing healers, what I'm opposed is the way people think it should be fixed. Otherwise, why not just go for something even more extreme? Get rid of the healing role all together, give everyone else two more self-healing. After all, if it's truly most healers already had such a strong distaste for healing, and seem to prefer DPS much more ... that'll work out perfectly fine won't it?

There's already a thread about just removing Healers entirely.

Personally, I don't find DPS roles to be fulfilling to keep me playing long term. Yes, I love playing my MNK periodically but when it comes down to it, I prefer a more support oriented playstyle and Healer used to be that for me. They slowly stripped away the support part of the job over the years to a point it's little more babysitting than actual support now.

[NekoMataMata]

Here's the thing though. A lot of content doesn't require healers to heal all that much. Unless the group is terrible to a point of forcing you to carry several people thru it, there is hardly any healing that is realistically needed anymore. The party doesn't NEED to be 100% for most mechanics nowadays. Hell, you can keep people at 60% and more likely than not, they'll still survive the next Raid Wide attack.

Casual content has become so mind numbingly easy that the healer could die at the start of a fight and you could still possibly clear it with just residual healing from the Tanks and liberal applications of any self sustain tools a job currently has access to.

Had a friend go on their SGE to do whatever the dungeon 6.1 added is called. They died on the 2nd and last boss when the boss' were still somewhere in the ballpark of 60-70% Health remaining. The party was a GNB, BLM and myself as a MNK. We killed both bosses while my friend sat outside the arena.

My FC was helping people that have NEVER done a savage raid clear P1S and P2S with just a SGE solo healing.

Ultimate Fights are being cleared with 1 healer while STILL using their 1 DPS spell the overwhelming majority of the time.

Healing in this game has become little more than a bad joke, all because people complain whenever they get a bad healer from time to time but when a Bad Tank or DPS commit war crimes no one bats an eye.

And so that means that healers need to be changed?

I'm not against healer changes necessarily but... if healers aren't necessary for current content, then surely that's a problem with the content and not the healers, isn't it?

Again, I'm not against healers getting more dps options in order to further diversify what we can do performance wise but at the moment that sounds like a very small bandaid for what seems to be a much larger issue. If healers aren't necessary for current content, and we give healers a full out dps rotation in response to that, then we might as well just turn each healing class into a DPS class instead.

Sure, go ahead and give healers a dps rotation if you really want, but the clear issue right now is that healers don't have enough healing to do in fights unless their team is absolutely screwing up everything. That is clearly the priority.

[Silver-Strider]

And so that means that healers need to be changed?

I'm not against healer changes necessarily but... if healers aren't necessary for current content, then surely that's a problem with the content and not the healers, isn't it?

Again, I'm not against healers getting more dps options in order to further diversify what we can do performance wise but at the moment that sounds like a very small bandaid for what seems to be a much larger issue. If healers aren't necessary for current content, and we give healers a full out dps rotation in response to that, then we might as well just turn each healing class into a DPS class instead.

Sure, go ahead and give healers a dps rotation if you really want, but the clear issue right now is that healers don't have enough healing to do in fights unless their team is absolutely screwing up everything. That is clearly the priority.

The Devs already said they weren't going to make healing harder so there's really nothing left to discuss.

[NekoMataMata]

The Devs already said they weren't going to make healing harder so there's really nothing left to discuss.

You're right, there absolutely is no discussion left then. They've essentially killed off the healer's role in that case. Turning the role into a dps is not the answer.