Healers need an overhaul

[Nizzi]

TBH tanks have way too many DPS buttons that distract them from tanking, I really hope we get rid of those. In fact, I believe it's vital to the long term health of the game that they only have 1 DoT and 1 enmity generator as their rotation. I have so many tanks that never hit any of their mitigations even in level 90 content, so I think that if we reduce the absolute amount of DPS button bloat that tanks have, they'll be able to focus more on TANKING. I'm excited for 7.0 where Paladin will lose all of its useless DPS bloat so it can focus on TANKING.

[IDontPetLalas]

I don't think I ever said anything about people doing outside of group content. But if they join a group as a healer, I would expect them to ... heal?



And did I say they do?



When an AOE coming up, the party is not full, and you still see Broil/Glare/Melafic going off. Or when you have to burn through your kits healing succession mechanics without any help ... I would like to hear a different explanation if you have one.




And ... that's exactly the problem? Indeed nobody is asking the healers to do that, the content definitely doesn't need the healers to do that. What, you think when tank/DPS or even healing, I prefer the healer to DPS as much as possible over keeping the group alive? In case you missed the point, the healer is doing for the shake of their parse over the group's well being, that's the point.

1- Can you provide an example where a healer needs to heal all of the time? Because I can't think of one. Maybe you're thinking of day 1 content, but I don't even think that's a good example, because no one knows what they're doing. So, maybe you're thinking about Ultimate content- no, that isn't either. So can we agree that in most groups a fair amount of time there is nothing to heal or no one to raise? So the healer does- what?? Just stare at healthbars?

2- So their can be healers who may make a poor judgement at times. OH my goodness, if I could count all the times that someone cleaved a party, dropped a TB, didn't separate adds, or spun a boss . So what? You do not suddenly assume that everyone does this or that no one can possibly, ever , ever make a bad call and design a job around that assumption.

I don't even understand your last point, again it is you the miss the whole point. No one talked to healers about any design changes- they just went ahead and did them. Healers went ahead and adapted to them as a consequence. healers want to have fun, healers want engagement, and they want to contribute to the group, in this case we heal as little as in necessary and DPS. That is what is best for everyone- this "shake your parse" may factor for some people, but for many people that's plain silly, it's just a personal improvement tool (even with its limitations).

[Raven2014]

1- Can you provide an example where a healer needs to heal all of the time?

And where do I said anything about healer need to heal all the time? My issue is they don't heal when the need to.

2- So their can be healers who may make a poor judgement at times. OH my goodness, if I could count all the times that someone cleaved a party, dropped a TB, didn't separate adds, or spun a boss . So what? You do not suddenly assume that everyone does this or that no one can possibly, ever , ever make a bad call and design a job around that assumption.

Like I said, I cleared savage 4 (four) time a week, I see it happen often enough to understand it's not just some unfortunate incidents. There are people who cause an accident by making a honest mistake, or because they have bad tendency and habit. There are reason why classes like AST and SGE make their co-healer suffer less than a class than WHM (because even if the two former greed, their DPS output is not trade off). You even have people current in this discussion replied to me citing the problem is because healing doesn't count for DPS output (which was what triggered me to bring up the FFlog issue in the first place). So ... you can try to deflect, but if you can convince me this is an "innocent" issue, you probably can sell me a bridge.

I don't even understand your last point, again it is you the miss the whole point.

Wanna bet?

No one talked to healers about any design changes- they just went ahead and did them.

And did they talk to anyone about the change in enmity management and tank stance? Or did they just up and get rid of them whole sale one day? These day I see quite a few people like to reminiscent how enmity management were interesting yada yada. First, yeah they were right, it was more interesting. But secondly, do I miss the all of those wipe, bickering, arguments about it? Absolutely not, and guess what, I never have to worry about them again! Like I said, the dev give the community exactly what it deserves because time and time again, it had proven many do not have the mental maturity to handle the responsibility of "interesting" gameplay.

So who's missing whose point? People "condition" themselves into thinking "oh the Dev being lazy and make thing more simple" without realizing the contradiction of their claim. If things were already interesting, being lazy would actually mean just leave the classes as they were. The fact they go out of their way to remove stuffs (which is actually extra work) mean it is for different reason, reason that community don't want to admit, I'm just spelling out the unpleasant truth for you.

[Payadopa]

And this right here is a splendid example of what I meant by "mentality". Even for WHM, there is nothing inherently wrong with the class, it simply has a different healing style to other healers. The problem with WHM has nothing to do with its ability to heal the party, or even contributing meaningful DPS (without going muppet on it) comparing to other healers, the issue is the player compare their WHM to other WHM on FFlog, that have always been the one, and only problem. WHM has no defficiency from a gameplay perspective, its only flaw is that if you want to have a good FFlog, you have to be selfish. That, and you will hear me say it again and again, has nothing to do with the game.

Outside of Ultimate and first week Savage, there is no content that requires healer to squeeze out every last bit of DPS for a clear. The reason for healer greed is because if the next FFlog ranking requires 90 Glare, so healer don't want to cast only 89 and will push for 91 Glares even if it means jeopardizing the party. This is a problem self-invented by the community due to the internet culture when people care about impressing a bunch of people they will never meet in real life.


You know what, what you said is exactly why SGE is the best designed healer class, since there is almost no trade off between healing and DPSing. But still, that doesn't mean I want all healers to be rework similar to SGE. People complain about class homogenizing because "developers are lazy", yet I think it is the players who are the main reason for that trend, because they can't stand one class having "different" performance at the cost of gameplay diversity while such difference made next to zero difference in game.

That's spot on and the reason why jobs are being balanced into the ground. No casual cares that much about numbers.

[Nizzi]

Oh right, the developers removed our DPS actions because we're all idiots and we deserve this garbage state. That's the "unpleasant truth." Truly you are an enlightened genius among the unwashed brainless masses, you can discern that they did it because we do not have the "mental maturity" to handle more than 1 DoT and 1 Damage button!

Or wait, we can actually look at the developers actions - Yoshida said they were removing SCH's DPS kit because the SCH would be "DPSing away leaving the WHM to heal" in Stormblood. So they removed Miasma, Miasma II, Shadow Flare, Bane, and Energy Drain. You can make a case that Energy Drain was preventing SCH from wanting to heal with Aetherflow, but lets look at the rest of those.
Miasma was a casted DoT at the same cast length of Broil. This wasn't preventing Scholar from healing any more than Broil was, because Scholar was able to tell its faerie who to heal or cast pet actions while casting. So that's something that wasn't preventing it.
Miasma II was instant cast, but you needed to use Energy Drain along with it for it to not be a DPS loss of 30 potency. Still, because it was instant though, it wasn't preventing SCH from healing.
Bane used 1 Aetherflow, so perhaps it was, but they removed the Aetherflow cost for Bane on SMN in ShB, so they could've just done that.
Shadow Flare as well was an oGCD ability that wasn't preventing SCH from healing because Sacred Soil didn't have a regen back in Stormblood, but Shadow Flare was only 15s every 60s, so you had more than enough time to use Sacred Soil as well.
Energy Drain was the only thing preventing SCH from healing with Aetherflow, but even then, if using Energy Drain led to SCH having to GCD heal later, Energy Drain was a DPS loss.

But there's a big thing we need to actually look at with their actions going into Shadowbringers - they removed Scholar's entire free healing by moving Eos/Selene off the Pet GCD and onto the SCH's GCD as oGCD abilities. Scholar launched in 5.0 without Energy Drain, meaning outside of its 2 Bio refresh windows, healing as Scholar on Shadowbringers launch was always a DPS loss. If they wanted Scholar to heal more and focus less on DPS, why would they change the job entirely to not have free healing at all? Is it because the players do not have the mental maturity to handle the responsibility of free healing? Or is it more than likely that the developers have no clue what they're doing with these jobs? Why would they want to eliminate SCH's "DPS focus" while then making sure SCH wanted to do NOTHING but spam Broil and never heal, when before it was using its faerie to cover healing? Could it be that they don't understand how these jobs play and instead have a very stupid and misinformed vision of how players should be playing them?

There is no excuse for the majority of every healer's gameplay to be the same 1 DoT 1 Nuke spam from level 4 to level 90. The saddest part is that it wouldn't require many more DPS options to feel unique and varied while being more fun than it is now. Give SCH Miasma and Bane back, now SCH is managing 2 DoTs on different timers and it has more than 1 AoE button in dungeons or situations where Bane would be a gain to use. Give AST Double Cast from PvP for more movement and more breathing room for weaving outside of Lightspeed. Etc, etc. It wouldn't take much to make this situation less contentious and boring while also not requiring an entire overhaul of the combat system. Playing solo as a healer is miserable. Doing story duties as a healer is miserable. Doing normal content as a healer is miserable. Doing FATEs as a healer is miserable. Getting a party that has two braincells and does mechanics properly is miserable. The worst part is that you cannot escape this at all. Every healer is like this. Fix it. There is no excuse and no justification other than selfish players whining about "b-but we might wipe!" and if you're so selfish you only care about your enjoyment to the point you're alright with lobotomizing an entire role because the idea of failing in a videogame makes you "shudder", you probably do not have the mental maturity to be having discussions like these to begin with.

[Lilapop]

healers: "waaaah muh dps"

you are a healer. heal.

if you want a dps, play... a dps...? it's not that hard, this is how it used to be back in the old days, considered COMMON SENSE for healers to HEAL and not outdps the actual dps classes.

[BRVV]

Is a healer standing around not doing dps, but healing if needed considered griefing or not?

Can't wait for "Just play Ultimate" to have "Just play CC" added on. Somehow that new mode DOES have uses for healers. I mean they need to heal there that's why white mage... wait why can white mage turn me into a pig? That's like... a "stun" basically. Why can something like this not be in PVE?

[Nizzi]

healers: "waaaah muh dps"

you are a healer. heal.

if you want a dps, play... a dps...? it's not that hard, this is how it used to be back in the old days, considered COMMON SENSE for healers to HEAL and not outdps the actual dps classes.

You mean the old days of this game where we had more DPS actions and had to heal more? Wow!

[Zairava]

healers: "waaaah muh dps"

you are a healer. heal.

if you want a dps, play... a dps...? it's not that hard, this is how it used to be back in the old days, considered COMMON SENSE for healers to HEAL and not outdps the actual dps classes.

Oh yes, the classic provide absolutely nothing to the discussion other than this piss poor argument.

There is not enough to heal that makes up for unending dps spam ad nauseam. Most of your time spent as a healer is dealing damage because the receiving damage is abysmally undertuned. Even in ultimate it has been proven repeatedly that most of spells casts is your single target dps spell, even in the recent solo heal clear of DSR Which shouldn't even be possible to begin with, but ya know, just stand there and do nothing I guess. Very fun, engaging gameplay to either just stand there and wait until you can cast a single healing spell or two. Which isn't much worse than 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1. Also, Unless your dps are absolute brainlets you should not be doing more dps than them in any circumstances. If you are outdps-ing the literal dps, that's the actual dps's fault, not the healers.

[Lilapop]

You mean the old days of this game where we had more DPS actions and had to heal more? Wow!

my bad for not clarifying, i meant old days of mmos in general