Healers need an overhaul

[anhaato]

Since SGEs MP economy is directly tied to Addersgal, not being able to generate Addersgal consistently would be disastrous for the job as a whole. Not only do you lower the skill floor for the job considerably by punishing players with low DPS uptime but also in cases when the boss is not targetable or you die and can't refresh the DoT, you have no way to generate Addersgal until the DoT can be refreshed, limiting the job heavily at the higher end of the spectrum as well.

The alternative I was referring to was having DoTs on SCH that build up the Fairy Gauge. Since the Fairy Gauge is limited to Aetherpact and that Aetherpact isn't a huge component to SCH's capability to heal, it would be more than adequate for DoTs to function as a means of build up the Fairy Gauge than they would Addersgal/Aetherflow/Lilies etc.

I think a better direction to take SGE in would be to expand on Kardia by having skills that restore more/less HP on use but offer different benefits for the SGE.

The thing about brd's dot procs is that they were a lot more frequent than you think, even though the tick is 3 secs. I suggested them as a (former?) brd main because I know even if your luck is "bad," when you have 2 dots with a 40% chance per tick you're still getting a fair deal every 30 secs. As it is now with the current flat 80% rate it's not as much but it's a similar number, and that's in the line of what I'm suggesting. That's nearly a guaranteed 1 proc per gcd window. To put that on fairy gauge would make it build way way way faster than it does now making you sit on a mostly useless overcapped resource for even longer than before. That would pretty much just be unnecessary fluff. On the other hand, if you're looking at that sort of proc rate for addersgall, which is used as frequently as it is, then you will most likely overcap every now and then, but it should be at a very accommodating rate either way. In fact, it would make it a far more plentiful resource than it already is with its 10(?) second charge time per stack. Enough to nerf the individual heals with how spammable it becomes, I'd say.

Kardia, to me, is an almost insultingly lazy design on the devs' part as it is that they're trying to pass off as "dps healing"; it's literally just passive healing on a single target as a substitute for fairy heals. I'd rather it not be a thing at all, personally, but my addersting suggestion was an indirect way to build off of it regardless if we accept it as sacrosanct to the job's identity. You could, I suppose, build off of it with support abilities, but sge isn't a support healer the way sch is.

[Banriikku]

I am very courious and intrigue by this discussion but one thing borthers me.
The argument "no more dps more buff/debuff/meaningfull healing etc." has a major flaw.

My hypothesis:
Healing is binary this means only enough or not enough and healing has no other outcome besides survival (enough healing) or death (not enough healing).
With this the healer role is not even necessary and can be discarded from the game without breaking anything by just giving all other jobs more sustain. This can be achieved even without increase of buttons. Therefore the healer role is unnecessary.

Test:
Take a group of people (Group A) and chose a fight. this first group will perform und the idea "healer should heal". Track down how long it takes, how many tries etc.

Now another group (Group B) this time the group will perform under the idea "healer heal wiht OGCD and the rest of the time should DPS"

last but not least a control group (Group C) whithout any premise

The result i predict is:
For all content related to MSQ or Normal difficulty - a slight increase of completion time , Group B > Group A
For all content Extreme related a more measurable and faste completion of the duty, Group B > Group A
For all savage content slight increase in speed for completion in compersion to extreme, Group B > Group A
For Ultimate there is huge gap in completion time between the two ideas. The idea "healer heal with OGCD and the rest of the time dps" has a higher success rate and faster completion time over "healer should only heal".

With this we learn:
Healing with OGCD or not will only matter if you play Ultimate and maybe to savage last fight (i dont see this point because i played with 3 diffrent statics and all this years my dps was not necessary for success) and you will have the same result: clear the fight with both attitudes. This leads to the conclusion that the healer is here only to elevate poor performance of other player and if all players play medicore the healer is redundant. The only two jobs that need to be here because the design dictates it are tank and dps.

Now to the point of more healing or buff/debuff:
The healer role is not in the battle design included at the moment and your proposal would make it necessary to design the fight with a healer in mind. This would make it necessary to rework the complete battle design of 2 Expacs or more and this is in my opinion very unlikely to happen (we ask for a redisgn of the glamour system now for atleast 3 expacs, we asked for ARR quest change for years only to get a partly solution).

[Nizzi]

In a world where the developers actually cared about how healers played, we would definitely have more supportive skills, CC options and even a few more DPS spells again. They need to stop treating us like we're the role for idiots who want an easy clear and instead respect that we're just as intelligent as our tank and DPS party members. Our job is to SUPPORT the party - that's why we heal and DPS.
When Yoshida was talking about how good Holy was because of its stun and how they were looking at adding something similar to SCH and AST, I was actually excited because that's the type of thing that healers need and would benefit newer healers immensely in situations where things go wrong if they had buttons that can handle mobs for a moment so they can recollect. Of course, we didn't get Heavy/Slow/Disease/Malady or anything on our AoEs because why would healers get anything actually beneficial or fun?

Why did healers lose Eye for an Eye, a barrier w/ a chance to make the enemy hit for 10% less and instead get Repose? That seems way more useful in almost every situation than Repose is. Was replacing a supportive tool for a shitty ST Sleep that still has the old 2.5s cast time really necessary? Why did SCH lose Virus and DPS got it as Addle? All we have now are just "heal big, heal bigger, mitigation some, mitigate some more" fire and forget bullshit that leaves every job in this role feeling flavorless and like the exact same job. It's stuff like this why I really laugh at the idea that these healer changes are designed to make it easier for newer players. How? Newer players have no CC anymore, they couldn't even bother to make Repose like Sleep and make it AoE, at least then it might have some usefulness in bad situations a healer needs to control. Outside of pressing heal buttons over and over, you don't have any supportive control over situations as a healer, especially in lower levels when players are trying to learn these jobs.

You know why healing continues to be "stressful" for newer players? Because there's LITERALLY nothing they can do except spam buttons and watch health bars ping pong. They can't apply Shadow Flare to slow down mobs anymore. They can't use Fluid Aura to knockback mobs and bind them anymore. They can't use Celestial Opposition to stun them anymore. You know one of the reasons people love playing WHM in dungeons? Because having the ability to do some freaking CC is incredibly helpful and there's never a situation where Holy is not useful in dungeons. But no, SE really thinks that we just love more healing buttons. SE has created and exacerbated this problem of people who only want to heal and only want to GCD curespam, because for 50+ levels now there's NOTHING they can do other than that. If they ask for advice on what to do in these situations, it's pretty much just "yeah spam heals to sustain your tank" and there's no growth, and bad habits start to set in very quickly on what a healer should be doing.

We're very blessed to have these designers that can clearly make well designed healers and put thought into the role and interactions within their kits, and then for some inexplicable reason they remove it all and then tell us to deal with it and that we're never ever getting old job design back. It's stupid and insulting.

[Lilapop]

You know why healing continues to be "stressful" for newer players? Because there's LITERALLY nothing they can do except spam buttons and watch health bars ping pong. They can't apply Shadow Flare to slow down mobs anymore. They can't use Fluid Aura to knockback mobs and bind them anymore. They can't use Celestial Opposition to stun them anymore. You know one of the reasons people love playing WHM in dungeons? Because having the ability to do some freaking CC is incredibly helpful and there's never a situation where Holy is not useful in dungeons. But no, SE really thinks that we just love more healing buttons. SE has created and exacerbated this problem of people who only want to heal and only want to GCD curespam, because for 50+ levels now there's NOTHING they can do other than that. If they ask for advice on what to do in these situations, it's pretty much just "yeah spam heals to sustain your tank" and there's no growth, and bad habits start to set in very quickly on what a healer should be doing.

that's stressful? it's stressful for healers to... heal in dungeons? and yet healers want... more things to do to stress them out even more when their primary goal is a stress factor? confusion. maybe if... teamwork... was applied to keep the healer alive, this wouldn't be a problem. this is a foreign concept in this game for some reason. don't see why healers are expected to be dps/support/with enough hp to practically tank all in one? there are too many healer buttons, which is about the only thing in this little chunk that makes any sense. if you see someone telling one of these "bad habits" why don't you step in and correct them, then? though personally, i haven't seen anyone say "oh just curespam the tank and they'll be fine" at all. anyone who is curespamming simply isn't aware of how to utilize the rest of their kit and figures that they can barely get by with it, and they can. so why would they change if its working for them? there's no motivation to do so.

[Shurrikhan]

that's stressful? it's stressful for healers to... heal in dungeons? and yet healers want... more things to do to stress them out even more when their primary goal is a stress factor? confusion.

"The only thing stressing healers at most levels of play is tedium and a lack of agency."
-> "Well then surely anything added, even as it would decrease tedium and increase agency, would overstress the role!"

???

[Lilapop]

"The only thing stressing healers at most levels of play is tedium and a lack of agency."
-> "Well then surely anything added, even as it would decrease tedium and increase agency, would overstress the role!"

???

if healing stresses out a healer in what universe does it make sense to also add more when they can't even manage their primary task?

[Shurrikhan]

if healing stresses out a healer in what universe does it make sense to also add more when they can't even manage their primary task?

Except that's your argument, not anyone else's.

Healing doesn't stress out healers.

Being a "healer" stresses out healers when there is so little to do that makes use of their kit and so few ways by which for that kit to contribute.

[Nizzi]

that's stressful? it's stressful for healers to... heal in dungeons? and yet healers want... more things to do to stress them out even more when their primary goal is a stress factor? confusion. maybe if... teamwork... was applied to keep the healer alive, this wouldn't be a problem. this is a foreign concept in this game for some reason. don't see why healers are expected to be dps/support/with enough hp to practically tank all in one? there are too many healer buttons, which is about the only thing in this little chunk that makes any sense. if you see someone telling one of these "bad habits" why don't you step in and correct them, then? though personally, i haven't seen anyone say "oh just curespam the tank and they'll be fine" at all. anyone who is curespamming simply isn't aware of how to utilize the rest of their kit and figures that they can barely get by with it, and they can. so why would they change if its working for them? there's no motivation to do so.

I have never seen someone so brazenly miss the very obvious point of a post and then try to argue something it isn't saying. I'm not going to enact the Sisyphean labor of trying to explain what it's saying to you, but you can continue to argue with phantoms if you wish.

[Lilapop]

I have never seen someone so brazenly miss the very obvious point of a post and then try to argue something it isn't saying. I'm not going to enact the Sisyphean labor of trying to explain what it's saying to you, but you can continue to argue with phantoms if you wish.

considering i acknowledged the point and provided a counter, whether you choose to accept it or not isn't really relevant, fact being noticed the very obvious nonsensical point, but suit yourself.

[Nizzi]

considering i acknowledged the point and provided a counter, whether you choose to accept it or not isn't really relevant, fact being noticed the very obvious nonsensical point, but suit yourself.

Again, you have no clue what the very obvious point is and I'm not going to bother arguing whatever nonsense you're trying to act like I'm saying when you won't even attempt to read and understand what is being said. Not worth my time.