PVP and ME vs a Prevailing tone

[Evos]

Background: Just about finished the seasons exp to max, have done maybe 100+ casual matches (I have recorded them all). Main Job used (SAM) and I'm usually highest damage done and kills/assists. Last part added for showing my ability to use it mostly not for some type of ranking or boast.

My opinion: Amazing job ffxiv dev team. I never knew I could stop playing regular content and just play PvP straight lol. This mode appears to complete the game after all these iteration. This is because in my opinion, it has finally improved a mode which is suppose to offers realtime reaction and variable battle engagements. It is therefore the opposite of the often predictable main-game content.

Why is this good: because I have no idea what player A in match 255 is really going to do nor do I know there skill level. Heck I don't even know if they have (coincidentally lol) que'd onto the same team. But it doesn't matter because after reading over my job skills I realized that as a SAM I have a distinct 'playstyle' and an optimal rotation of various if this than do this or branches. After reading BLM I noticed it too has a 'playstyle' probably not very easily mastered but unique and I am actually excited to bring the pain after some practice runs.

After reading nearly all the job skills I think I understand how this was intended to go in battle. Learn your jobs optimal 'playstyle' or you will not be effective to the team. Learn your optimal rotation or you will hit like a feather. Fail to preform any of these especially without situational awareness and your chances of dying are high (you will not have good time). Guard (cancelled by any skill or ability) and purify as ogcds not only can be used to bait and confuse your opponent but requires good timing while doing everything else.

All in all even in casual matches this can be really jarring and difficult without spontaneous teamwork which I love and well... skill. Because for every time I here a job is op as a SAM, they were defeated even in 1v1. When I have fought other SAM they were defeated. I can count on my had how many times out of a hundred matches another SAM has deleted me with their LB. Meanwhile I have deleted an entire team with my LB. It's called mashing or tunnelling in some games of skill and you get punished. And in other times I just used the damage as a finisher.

But I have also been out played by very skilled 1v1 or the usual team coordinated offense. On there other hand some teams seemed to have a hard time dealing with one player lol the 1v3 or 1v4. Rare as these instances are they are rewarding and amazing to see. Again probably not fun to many others but an expression of the design of the mode overall.

Prevailing Tone says alot of jobs are broken or underperforming. I'll say do you know what it was designed to do and have you been able to do that well? Because the numbers on all the jobs a pretty basic and all you have to do is know that my 16k set up is this or my LB works best in this situation. So to avoid the same topics about complexity vs simple, weak vs op dps and lastly 'why can't I do what they can do' I'll say this, is it more of a I don't want to play like this with this role or I just want to do alot of dps? These are important honest questions to ask yourself. Because you're going to again have a bad time without awareness and the match matching like the PF means you need even more reaction and rotation understanding.

More importantly the matching means anything can happen but all this gets over shadowed if any of the players know or have all that has been mentioned so far (damage, awareness, and skill). If they as a WAR knows 'my job is to raise hell on the field not kill, they will likely get you killed. But more importantly I will immediately notice and try to focus you down because your a problem moreso than the supposed op SAM on their team lol. I think the chaos is Amazing and well thought out. If I had my way very little would change aside from bugs and not working as intended functions. The battles are quick and engaging for me and I haven't had this much fun in the game for a while because here I see alot of the job lore and flavor in the skills. So while we all want to have easier times playing our favorites and just don't want to get deleted let's not lose alot of this unique flavor that the main-content constrains for content reasons.

Lastly okay maybe some deminishing returns on crowd control.

So feel free to add your thoughts about my thoughts lol. I will say if it is going to become the same type of things already mentioned in the other threads, maybe you could elaborate more on the 'why' that job does what it does with those skills in a team setting. Perhaps consider the other factors I mentioned that contribute to the overall gameplay like awareness, knowing the simple yet branching combos to be effective, role style ( e.g tank as support /disruptor; reaper-debuffer etc.), or even reaction time. I think alot of work and thought has gone into this mode. It could not have been an easy task to turn this around (opinion). Moreso, they finally added a reward structure (suspiciously like a certain popular card game) that makes the time investment worth something (subjective). But the way it has been implemented, I'm just having alot of fun playing it than anything. I only collected the rewards after the fact. Again I am looking forward to trying all the jobs. Especially. before they make all the adjustments and hotfixes of worse dramatic job changes. For something that some might think is easy or a mini-game, PVP is kinda complex and competitive in a great way. Thanks Devs! working mostly as intended I hope.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

I will say if it is going to become the same type of things already mentioned in the other threads, maybe you could elaborate more on the 'why' that job does what it does with those skills in a team setting. Perhaps consider the other factors I mentioned that contribute to the overall gameplay like awareness, knowing the simple yet branching combos to be effective, role style ( e.g tank as support /disruptor; reaper-debuffer etc.), or even reaction time.

I mean yeah you're basically saying "My class that has more self sustain more mitigation and more dps versatility than even some of the tanks can do 16k damage so anyone can do it" which kinda neglects to acknowledge what the base kit is capable of.

SAM at the moment has better tank skills than GNB. You have a better Nebula that isn't dependent on the other team having a tank to pull it from, AND gives you a 25% dps buff to the enemy all the while giving 2k counter attacks and not counting the binds/stuns/barriers it has.

WHM at the moment has two purifies, aoe stun from a LB nuke they can cast basically every 60s even without exploiting the cure 2 glitch, aoe cure, aoe protect, an instant castable 12k nuke every 15s that gives them more mitigation and more dps and more heals, a non-purifiable transform, and two 12k potency heals that while requiring a cast time can still be used at range to do some meaty healing.

WAR can stun an entire group on a crystal every 15s with no downsides. They take forever to kill and 10s later they're back to griefing you. CC in this mode is a huge deal, and some classes have zero cc skills.

Combine all this with server ping and purify not working how you want it to and guard being "finnicky" to say the least and you have a recipe for annoyance from all angles. The disparity between classes is loud when some of them can turn the tide so easily and so frequently.

It's not just "awareness" that creates a WHM/WAR meta, it's the kits being functionably better (to start with) from an entry point. Two cars may get to the same destination but if one person is driving a new porsche and the other an 86 chevy, I know who I'd rather ride with.

*EDIT* ALL THAT ASIDE the new pvp mode is great and I really enjoy it, I just either want other classes brought up to snuff with some of the busted kits or some of the busted kits given a balance pass on top of fixing purify.

[Evos]

I mean we are in agreement but of course SAM has these things regardless of the potency for a reason. When you realize what the SAMs options are in combat you start to see that alot of it is all or nothing. My only way out of a failed killed is guard hopefully or save a dash to get to what another enemy player lol or restart my burst 30 sec later whole doing filler GCDs. I'm going to use the dash for dps (augments) and if I fail, I'm dead. If I have casts how do I cast if I'm cc'ed. If I can't do any real dmg what is the point of being a dps. If it's about ease of execution okay maybe but just play SAM (only slightly joking and I don't even main this job in pvp) to see how easy it is to get those kills. But I digress, I understand that you are coming from balance. But in a team vs team setting any competent group will destroy a SAM and all that op overtuned design vanishes. It doesnt take much to kill the job believe me. And when you see a SAM surviving and racking up kills, mistakes are being made on the other side.

[Evos]

And your point to WAR and WHM is not accurate. Any decent team of players knows to destroy the war when he jumps in and to stun the healer who won't be too far away. These are easy strats friend. Sure you can't kill the healer easily but no job is op but the ceiling can be high in this kind of mode. Bait the WAR with guard CC them burst and it's over 15sec before they can do it again. If the WAR is smart they will use primal rend effectively.

If they pop everything well guess what that's not very smart. I already addressed this concern and have the experience to back it. The healer has a few choices heal themselves or be deleted, or run leaving the WAR with dps which hopefully can pull off burst damage. In no way will a team get dominated by just a WAR and WHM. Mistakes are being made and we have to be honest. Not to mention what the other 3 players on the team are doing or ...should be doing. This is not a vacuum and the points being made are reflection of only a fraction of what's actually happen. You can't carry a team unless no one on the other team is actually playing lol.

The more you do the longer it takes to return to battle so if it's just 2 really good players And the rest are dying than I'm sure this means those two survivors will either huddle near their base or retreat because they will be taken out. Like it really sounds silly after a while.

I acknowledge when I get outplayed can anyone else? Lose with some dignity and start the next round.

[Amelimie]

All this and its just a SAM saying get good, really one of the most broken jobs in pvp, so the point of view is pretty wrong.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

I mean we are in agreement

I don't think so? Here's what you're missing.

You're stating the failures and/or punishment for SAM specifically as to why it has a busted kit. But then saying WAR and WHM have to be bursted down for their busted kit and CAN be bursted down. So you're saying that if everyone hops on one person they can die, which is why you should have a better kit at baseline than even tanks? That's just...an odd hill to die on.

Everyone else has the exact same drawbacks with less tools to augment their abilities to deal with them, except for a few of the busted classes. "But if I rush in and get ganged up on I'll die!" So will...everyone? But they don't come prebuilt with a 50% damage negation that procs a 25% damage increase for them.

"In no way will a team get dominated by just a WAR and a WHM"

Yes but that's what I'm saying. Their kits are better by default and there is (usually) only one healer and tank per match. If the slot is filled by anyone other than those two roles you START at a disadvantage because of the disparity between kits.

A fight is never won by a single person but to pretend like when that role is usually locked to one person that the person in that chair isn't integral to victory is being naive. Creating a false equivalence of discussion over base kits by saying "Well no one person can carry the whole team" is poisoning the well.

Again the car scenario of "I can have a gas guzzling old piece of crap car" or "new hybrid engine soft leather seats gas mileage efficient sports car." You can say "but you'll get to Vegas eventually as well" but one of us is having a way better time and spending less effort.

Again talking about theoretical "competent teams" in random matchmaking means you're saying well yeah sure the opposing team has 2 gladiators and 3 pipsqueaks but look at you! You got 5 pipsqueaks, that's balanced!

Even with skill you can't counter 15s repetitive Stuns, LB spams, and if they have a DRG/SAM/RDM/NIN that knows how to play their role. That's ignoring the parties I've ended up with where I got stuck with two tanks and they had two-three healers, or where I was 1 healer and 5dps vs a WAR/WHM/Dps party.

When other teams don't have that utility or that skill, it's unbalanced. Just saying "Well you gotta be good though" doesn't change your starter kit being superior to most.

[Evos]

Your comparing a dps to a tank and saying that the dps is doing what the tank 'should be doing.' I get the impression that 'busted' to you and some how 'better base line kit' mean different things to me.

I also think that for some reason SAM is a problem anytime 'you' have seen one. Where I can just as simply say oh 'in my experience' seeing a SAM didn't make me feel anything. I'm certainly not thinking 'boy I hope that SAM, WAR, or WHM doesn't come over here or we are done for.' I literally don't even notice this at all. If you stop reading selectively you will see that I'm not making excuses for the SAM kit. I could care less if they nerf SAM (I don't main anything) but will guarantee, from how you describe your interactions, you will still have a prob with SAM, WAR, WHM.

I'm not trying to dismiss your 'feelings' about balance but I think my points (and I think I made alot) stand and I have given context as to why. You have not changed this with your points.

I mentioned alot of factors which you refuse to include for a proper rebuttal. I won't repeat them as I probably write too much for some lol. To the Dps with better Tank characteristics part, the def CD is very short I suggest you make your target buffs debuffs HUD bigger. If I can pay attention and counter so can you. Apparently I have solved an impossible problem in PvP.

[Evos]

I also if you have not done so suggest playing a melee, and healer, or ranged phy/caster in CC. The devs aren't perfect by any means and neither is my argument perfect but the way you engage or can engage in PVP is very different with each category.

These initial kit which are subject to change fit an intended style for each category and within them. Comparisons between categories e.g Tank vs Dps is rather useless in this context of PvP roles.

[Evos]

I stand by the not 'carrying any team' position for obvious factors which I again won't repeat.

And I can't find where I made a false equivalence between anything. That seem to be what your doing. I fact if you read my initial post (sorry it's alot) I pretty much say the jobs are distinct and have very different engage strategies. I even provide a take on the WAR role in battle. If you dont agree that's fine but don't put words in my mouth.

We can argue SAM does what MNK does but better (um ...baseline I guess). The problem is MNK is (pretty cool) an attempt to offer a different (combo oriented follow-up) why to achieve the same goals (dps) for different player. Every time we take this variability away we get very similar jobs only to complain about that in a game where we can play any job we want. This is not PVE and the devs will make adjustments likely anyway to fill out or correct for intended design and playstyle in this mode.

And guess what...at the patch notes you may feel satisfied but be sure that someone else will be shaking their head in disappointment. Such is the nature of this game. I was only sharing my enjoyment and appreciation on the work they did.

Lastly I'll be more clear we are in agreement that some adjustment need to be made (bring others up) and hopefully that suite your preferences and make you feel there is more balance. 'Busted' or OP ...hmm idk about that. SAM (for example) feels design great not because others can't deal with it.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

I think we're talking past each other so I'll just say this and move on. I can't really relate to someone playing one of the objectively best classes in the game and then going "well everyone else just needs to get good."

Some classes in the same range (DPS) have little to no mitigation and/or dps self buffs, and most of them don't have an instant kill LB either. If you can't see that the base kits for some classes are absurdly better than other kits, then I don't know what to tell you.

Busted/Better Base Line Kit is exactly what I'm arguing. GNB can't "tank" as well as a SAM can. That's not good/balanced. Regardless of how you feel about "different classes doing different things/methods" you are continuing to draw a conclusion that suits you for no other reason than to support your own class. If I have a pick between a WAR and a GNB (because keep in mind this is RANDOM match making, this is not arguing against the potential utility in a premade/organized team, lest we forget we have no power over if we get sent with 1 tank and 4 dps, 1 healer and 4 dps, or all dps while the other party is stacked with WHM/WAR/SAM/RDM/NIN) I'm not going to be happy if I get landed with a GNB (which I want to play in this mode but stopped due to how ridiculously bad its kit is).

And you can't really talk about Roles not playing a factor because of the pvp mode when the matchmaking (seems to anyways) always put one tank and one healer in each party, thus the fact that since I got to plat I've seen nothing but WARs/WHMs on the opposing teams with the occasional PLD or DRK. They ARE trying to balance this out through match making so we cannot "ignore roles" in this mode. Especially when ones like WAR have the survivability they do and the map control they do, and especailly when WHM has the nuking/support potential it does. This is basic stuff in any pvp game.

It's not that GNB does "Different things" it's that it's literally less effective at EVERYTHING than both a dps (SAM) and the other tanks (WAR). I don't need a rando on the internet to say "Well different classes do different things" the truth of the matter is in its current state with server ping and purify being broken that Crowd Control is king and some classes flat out don't even have it. GNB can't do as good dps unless under very specific conditions, it can't do as good healing/self sustain unless a healer is on the other team adn even then you're losing out on dps, you can't tank effectively without a tank on the other team, with no mitigation besides that skill, and your dps even at its highest can be outdone with less risk with a lot of dps (or some healers in SGE's case).