Thread: 6.1 MSQ showcases the narrative problems that continue to plague the game's story

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We are shown in an expansion prior that memories are easily manipulated. Look at Cid in Bozja where he thought it was Varis who shot him but it was actually his Father. He had manipulated his own memories as to not tarnish his memories of his father. It’s called bias. We had bias with Emet in ShB and now we have bias with Venat as well. They weren’t going to sacrifice everyone, they specifically stated 3 total sacrifice cycles. We know that they suffered and weren’t entirely perfect. They still fought through grief etc.Also actually, they were pretty open to ideas, this is shown in numerous examples in Elpis but in one occasion in particular we even add a part in their funeral ceremony for creations. And we do that as a familiar so clearly they’re open to many ideas.Meteion was the result of a psychopath unfortunately, who was wallowing too deep in his depression he couldn’t take 2 steps outside and see that there were people that felt the same way as him.

if you'd ever bothered to dig into the society of the ancients, you'd realize that they weren't nearly as open minded as you so claim. They were a society of extremely powerful beings that liked to play god and paid little heed to the pain and suffering they inflicted on the creatures that they weaved into existence. They expected everyone to behave a certain way, to dress a certain way, and anyone who did not fall into line was pushed out. There were plenty of people who were disillusioned with the society, just like Hermes, however, they were in the vast minority. The reason why Emet-Selch, Venat, and Hythlodaeus were more open to listening to you is because they had the privilege of authority and could bend societal standards, Venat in particular is given a very generous amount of leeway because society has accepted that those who take the seat of Azem have a particular eccentricity about them. Outside of the convocation, people are held to very strict standards. You say they are open to ideas, but i always saw them looking at you with this detached kind of amusement, like how a parent smiles and plays along with the ramblings of a child, but forgets about it the moment the conversation is done.

Hermes was by no means a psychopath, he was just horribly depressed and completely fed up with how society functioned on Etheirys and was desperate to see how people of other worlds lived day to day, what their societies were like, what gave their lives meaning, etc. The problem is that he made Meteion an extremely sensitive empath (so she could manipulate Dynamis better), but never taught her how to handle negative emotions and stop them from affecting her. He essentially took a collection of small children and sent them out into the universe with no idea on how to handle their own emotions and wanted them to impose an existential question upon any intelligent lifeforms they came across, with no regard of how it would affect her mental wellbeing.

Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

i always saw them

Okay, so it's your opinion. Probably since 5.0, if I had to guess. There's that nearly 400 page thread about the 6.0 story for you two to continue this at, but it's filled with scary! Ancient fans who do not see it that way at all and disagree with how the writers presented things.

Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

if you'd ever bothered to dig into the society of the ancients, you'd realize that they weren't nearly as open minded as you so claim. They were a society of extremely powerful beings that liked to play god and paid little heed to the pain and suffering they inflicted on the creatures that they weaved into existence. They expected everyone to behave a certain way, to dress a certain way, and anyone who did not fall into line was pushed out. There were plenty of people who were disillusioned with the society, just like Hermes, however, they were in the vast minority. The reason why Emet-Selch, Venat, and Hythlodaeus were more open to listening to you is because they had the privilege of authority and could bend societal standards, Venat in particular is given a very generous amount of leeway because society has accepted that those who take the seat of Azem have a particular eccentricity about them. Outside of the convocation, people are held to very strict standards. You say they are open to ideas, but i always saw them looking at you with this detached kind of amusement, like how a parent smiles and plays along with the ramblings of a child, but forgets about it the moment the conversation is done.

Hermes was by no means a psychopath, he was just horribly depressed and completely fed up with how society functioned on Etheirys and was desperate to see how people of other worlds lived day to day, what their societies were like, what gave their lives meaning, etc. The problem is that he made Meteion an extremely sensitive empath (so she could manipulate Dynamis better), but never taught her how to handle negative emotions and stop them from affecting her. He essentially took a collection of small children and sent them out into the universe with no idea on how to handle their own emotions and wanted them to impose an existential question upon any intelligent lifeforms they came across, with no regard of how it would affect her mental wellbeing.

Yes i did bother, and i even gave you proof.Just one of the many side quests off the top of my head that show the ancients are very open to new ideas is us contributing to their funeral rites and them making that a permanent thing. They let us, a familiar, add something to a very special rite. Also, lets be real here, if youre going to critique the ancients for conjuring up a bunch of animals and sending them to their death, then you had better do the same for the sundered who have time and time again, done this. Look at the Uldah colisseum, look at us summoning primals in Eden just to kill them, even this very patch Yshtola sends a familiar to the void that will most likely be destroyed. Some people felt for the creations yes, but then we show them the funeral rites and after actually yknow, TALKING WITH PEOPLE, they realized what they were doing was right and for the betterment of the star, this is something Hermes refused to do.

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes i did bother, and i even gave you proof.Just one of the many side quests off the top of my head that show the ancients are very open to new ideas is us contributing to their funeral rites and them making that a permanent thing. They let us, a familiar, add something to a very special rite. Also, lets be real here, if youre going to critique the ancients for conjuring up a bunch of animals and sending them to their death, then you had better do the same for the sundered who have time and time again, done this. Look at the Uldah colisseum, look at us summoning primals in Eden just to kill them, even this very patch Yshtola sends a familiar to the void that will most likely be destroyed. Some people felt for the creations yes, but then we show them the funeral rites and after actually yknow, TALKING WITH PEOPLE, they realized what they were doing was right and for the betterment of the star, this is something Hermes refused to do.

You bring up this example, but what about the serpent that was going to be unmade because it couldn't fly? And the Ancients may have adopted something for their funeral rites, but they're still making the decision to unmake something. One of Hermes' arguments was why did they create things but not let them live as they were, whether the creation had come out as something unexpected or not.

And summoning things just to kill them? That's exactly the point. The actions of the Sundered aren't always just. Neither were the Ancients, but they felt the same sense of superiority in their treatment of the creatures they decided the fates of.

Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

if you'd ever bothered to dig into the society of the ancients, you'd realize that they weren't nearly as open minded as you so claim. They were a society of extremely powerful beings that liked to play god and paid little heed to the pain and suffering they inflicted on the creatures that they weaved into existence. They expected everyone to behave a certain way, to dress a certain way, and anyone who did not fall into line was pushed out. There were plenty of people who were disillusioned with the society, just like Hermes, however, they were in the vast minority. The reason why Emet-Selch, Venat, and Hythlodaeus were more open to listening to you is because they had the privilege of authority and could bend societal standards, Venat in particular is given a very generous amount of leeway because society has accepted that those who take the seat of Azem have a particular eccentricity about them. Outside of the convocation, people are held to very strict standards. You say they are open to ideas, but i always saw them looking at you with this detached kind of amusement, like how a parent smiles and plays along with the ramblings of a child, but forgets about it the moment the conversation is done.

Agreed. What people took from the Elpis NPCs as '' acceptance '' and '' loving care '' I often saw as infantilization. There are of course some NPCs that take a more respectful approach, but even then I can't help but wonder if they truly see me as an equal or rather a test subject, or alternatively their respect is wholly based on our fake origin story of being Azem's familiar. Why did we ever even need this fake backstory about being Azem's familiar in the first place if the ancients are so loving and accepting of people who aren't their kin? Would the ancients unmake us had we stepped over the line or behaved improperly? After all, we are barely living with our small amount of aether..

There were also times when the ancients almost seemed like a cult to me, and arguably there are some very questionable things in the ancient civilization. But the issue really comes in when we spend several expansions experiencing all the rot and suffering the Source has to offer, while we spend very little time exploring the ancient civilization. So even if the writers had the intention to showcase both worlds as fundamentally flawed, I can see why it'd be a pretty easy choice for some to make to say '' oh yeah, the ancient civilization seemed like a paradise compared to what we have now '' because even stripped from most individuality and having to adhere to nonsense rules, I think most would choose that rather than a life of slavery, poverty and war.

Originally Posted by Tehmon

Agreed. What people took from the Elpis NPCs as '' acceptance '' and '' loving care '' I often saw as infantilization. There are of course some NPCs that take a more respectful approach, but even then I can't help but wonder if they truly see me as an equal or rather a test subject, or alternatively their respect is wholly based on our fake origin story of being Azem's familiar. Why did we ever even need this fake backstory about being Azem's familiar in the first place if the ancients are so loving and accepting of people who aren't their kin? Would the ancients unmake us had we stepped over the line or behaved improperly? After all, we are barely living with our small amount of aether..

There were also times when the ancients almost seemed like a cult to me, and arguably there are some very questionable things in the ancient civilization. But the issue really comes in when we spend several expansions experiencing all the rot and suffering the Source has to offer, while we spend very little time exploring the ancient civilization. So even if the writers had the intention to showcase both worlds as fundamentally flawed, I can see why it'd be a pretty easy choice for some to make to say '' oh yeah, the ancient civilization seemed like a paradise compared to what we have now '' because even stripped from most individuality and having to adhere to nonsense rules, I think most would choose that rather than a life of slavery, poverty and war.

the main problem is that they were headed down the road of stagnation. They didn't want things to change, they didn't want to suffer hardship and were willing to kill themselves just to achieve that. They were falling into the same exact pitfalls that caused the extinction of other worlds and were happy to go that route if it mean that things stayed the same until they wished themselves out of existence. It's silly how people still don't understand that sundering the world and forcing all of humanity to come to terms with pain and suffering was a necessary evil that was required to allow us to push past despair and find our own way forward.

Originally Posted by Thoosa

I liked the 6.1 story, miles better than the awful time travel stuff and the shoe-horned in Meteion (because they needed a big baddie after dispatching Zodiark “just like that” after 10 years of build up).

Eh, in hindsight Zodiark as a threat ended with Elidibus.