Thread: 6.1 MSQ showcases the narrative problems that continue to plague the game's story

Originally Posted by Theodric

The continued existence of their loved ones and society combined with reversing a situation that was inflcited upon them at the behest of a very unwell and deluded woman in the form of Venat. Let's not pretend as if she wasn't the one who forced the Ancients into the predicament in the first place by refusing to mention any of the information she had been entrusted with.

We don't know what she did and didn't do or say. We don't know that she didn't speak to someone. We don't even know if she didn't try to tell the Convocation or at least some members and they didn't believe her without proof. We can surmise she probably avoided it because Hermes was there but we don't know who she may have spoken to privately. For all we know, she told Azem and Azem said to stay mum because it's hinted we had future sight. We need more information the developers may or may not ever provide to know exactly what information the Convocation was going on.

And that still doesn't change the fact that the third sacrifice was controversial in the society and that raises the question of why if the new life wasn't equivalent to humans in some manner. We also saw in Elpis that everything they did was supposed to be for the good of the star. Is putting their own people above the star's creations doing that?

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

We don't know what she did and didn't do or say. We don't know that she didn't speak to someone. We don't even know if she didn't try to tell the Convocation or at least some members and they didn't believe her without proof. We can surmise she probably avoided it because Hermes was there but we don't know who she may have spoken to privately. For all we know, she told Azem and Azem said to stay mum because it's hinted we had future sight. We need more information the developers may or may not ever provide to know exactly what information the Convocation was going on.

And that still doesn't change the fact that the third sacrifice was controversial in the society and that raises the question of why if the new life wasn't equivalent to humans in some manner. We also saw in Elpis that everything they did was supposed to be for the good of the star. Is putting their own people above the star's creations doing that?

We know she didn’t tell Emet nor Elidibus, which if she didn’t tell on of her closest friends i highly doubt she told anyone else on the convocation. Also she has the echo….she can literally show them what happened. Also as Lauront said, Zodiark was the one who seeded those souls into the planet.

Disagree, personally. That is not to say Endwalker is perfect, I enjoyed it for what it was. But absolutely every single issue I see with Endwalker ultimately stems from the abysmal handling of the post-story for Shadowbringers. Elidibus died far too soon, couldn't get much of a redemption story and his character development deviated unbelievably fast. He went from being calm and collected, understanding his own mission and purpose to very suddenly being a lost soul in effect. I look at Elidibus in base Shadowbringers and early on in the post-story, and then look at him when we had to conclude his involvement until Elpis... Stark difference, regardless of how you want to look at it.

Next, I look at the whole issue surrounding the towers. Why did they exist in the first place? We wasted over half of the screen-time in Post-Shadowbringers MSQ on towers that couldn't effectively even perform their own goal. They detracted from the true final days (Zodiark's death) and gave pretty much entirely a false introduction to Endwalker. If I'm being frank, what happened on the Moon with Zodiark should've been relegated to post-Shadowbringers MSQ, Zodiark should've been gone before we entered Endwalker, and Meteion's laugh should have been 5.55. Equally, Fandaniel should've been introduced much earlier.

Sorry, but Post-Shadowbringers, whilst 'meaningful' in terms of building up a story, was far from anything good and suspenseful. Which is what a post-story into the next expansion should be.

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Disagree, personally. That is not to say Endwalker is perfect, I enjoyed it for what it was. But absolutely every single issue I see with Endwalker ultimately stems from the abysmal handling of the post-story for Shadowbringers. Elidibus died far too soon, couldn't get much of a redemption story and his character development deviated unbelievably fast. He went from being calm and collected, understanding his own mission and purpose to very suddenly being a lost soul in effect. I look at Elidibus in base Shadowbringers and early on in the post-story, and then look at him when we had to conclude his involvement until Elpis... Stark difference, regardless of how you want to look at it.

Next, I look at the whole issue surrounding the towers. Why did they exist in the first place? We wasted over half of the screen-time in Post-Shadowbringers MSQ on towers that couldn't effectively even perform their own goal. They detracted from the true final days (Zodiark's death) and gave pretty much entirely a false introduction to Endwalker. If I'm being frank, what happened on the Moon with Zodiark should've been relegated to post-Shadowbringers MSQ, Zodiark should've been gone before we entered Endwalker, and Meteion's laugh should have been 5.55. Equally, Fandaniel should've been introduced much earlier.

Sorry, but Post-Shadowbringers, whilst 'meaningful' in terms of building up a story, was far from anything good and suspenseful. Which is what a post-story into the next expansion should be.

Definitely agree with this. You can tell they didn’t know what to do with Elidibus, especially since they basically gave what his role was supposed to be over to Emet. Then every ancient thing had to be Emet Emet Emet. It took away from everyone else imo and also left them very little wiggle room. Both of the hearts(Venat and Elidibus) should have been at at least the forefront of this expansion seeing as it’s an end to their arc. Instead one of them gets a 5 minute cameo and is killed off, the other gets a bit more time but overall just has sloppy writing attached to her that it makes it hard to take the character seriously. A lot of this could have been fixed in ShB imo if they had focused less on Graha and finding a way home.

As someone who dislike EW story and it's pacing, I actually think 6.1 worldbuilding and pacing are fine. Sure, I might not care about vtra and the dragons that much, but it's necessary for the upcoming void exploration. That being said, I think we reunited with the old cast too fast.

As much as I complained about the scions being a yes man group, I don't actually hate them per se (though I do hate g'raha and y'sthola). The parting scene in the end of 6.0 is cool, but for that reason, meeting them again so quickly feels weird. Not to mention that due to the writer not wanting to burst the time bubble, it feels like time hasn't passed that much. I do want to go with them again, especially with thancred and estinien, but not this soon. Would appreciate it more if we met them again in 7.0.

*one of my favorite moment in 6.1 is when we can say that we sometimes prefer to adventure alone, in front of g'raha. Dude really needs to hear it.

If we're seriously getting a void expansion of all things I'm dropping this game no cap. Who the hell cares about an entire shard that's been destroyed when we have the rest of our non destroyed world to visit? I'm sick to bastard death of nothing but ruins.

Originally Posted by anhaato

If we're seriously getting a void expansion of all things I'm dropping this game no cap. Who the hell cares about an entire shard that's been destroyed when we have the rest of our non destroyed world to visit? I'm sick to bastard death of nothing but ruins.

Tbh I think we won't get a void expansion. My guess is this void plot is going to be the 6.x trials.

Main expansion needs a full new areas with NPCs, towns, and sidequests. Kinda hard to do it with a completely dead and broken world. Not impossible, but super hard imo, unless they pull a "some group of people actually still alive" (which seems impossible). Then again, I will be extremely curious and hyped if they decided to do a void expansion, since that means they will be doing something new and break the old "unlock new area, go to the town/settlement" formula.

Second, they can't really make a "restore the 13th" plot, since the voidsents are crucial to the story and side contents since ARR. Plus it will interfere with reaper job.

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Definitely agree with this. You can tell they didn’t know what to do with Elidibus, especially since they basically gave what his role was supposed to be over to Emet. Then every ancient thing had to be Emet Emet Emet. It took away from everyone else imo and also left them very little wiggle room. Both of the hearts(Venat and Elidibus) should have been at at least the forefront of this expansion seeing as it’s an end to their arc. Instead one of them gets a 5 minute cameo and is killed off, the other gets a bit more time but overall just has sloppy writing attached to her that it makes it hard to take the character seriously. A lot of this could have been fixed in ShB imo if they had focused less on Graha and finding a way home.

That's what I mean. Ultimately everything was done in Shadowbringers just felt largely inconsequential to the plot going forward in Endwalker. It's clear that Endwalker was basically clenching resources from the story, hence the pacing issues in some areas, and apparently by their own admission condensing a story arc conclusion worth 2 expansions, into a singular expansion. This was only exacerbated dramatically by Post-ShB. It would have been doable, but only if ShB were handled differently. But then I suppose it's a lot easier to look in the past and see what could've been done differently than to develop from scratch, so I can at least appreciate some of the complications. But if they could have kept Elidibus alive through this expansion, acting as a guide of sorts, and being that final 'judgment', traveling with us to Ultima Thule and acting as that final 'gateway' between us and the unsundered. Would have been a nice send-off to them... But then had I the choice I would've involved the entire convocation in some way shape or form, as opposed to it feeling like Emet and Hythlodaeus being representative of their entire race (connection aside and all).

The traveling back home was a little too padded out, but not nearly half as much as what those godawful towers were. That little section of the story was the lowest point in the story overall because the ending was ultimately echoed by Zenos' own words throughout the story of gorging on their aether, and the very obvious fact that the Final Days was ultimately going to be recreated by Zodiarks death, as opposed to this pseudo-end which was overemphasized in the post-story.