Thoughts on PVP balancing - before nerfing war/rdm/drg/etc

[Anhra]

People who complain that Jobs such as WAR and WHM are overrepresented, yet still join the same Bandwagon just to get easy wins, are nothing more but hypocrites. If you REALLY want to play Jobs such as DRK for example, then just do it and become good at it. If People see that you win matches as DRK by making a difference (even trough unorthodox Gameplay), they WILL try to copy you since they see that said Job is now more than viable.

Tl;dr: If you hate the Meta, dont follow it.

[Robina_Thicke]

Good Day fellow Gamers!

Here are my 2 cents for the PVP Issues as someone who only played AST and got to crystal with it.

First and foremost there are bugs to address:

-> Purify removing a debuff and granting the immunity buff, but you still get cc´ed right after, because of server tick.

-> Whm infite Heal = Bugusing and therefore cheating should have been addressed on tuesday.

-> Guard activation is wonky due to server tick.

Balancing:
-> 6 Classes that are really too strong need to be reworked (Nin, Sam, Drg, War and Redmage are too strong) and Whm is even above of them all because of LB, CC, healing and damage output as well as more Hp then any other healer (1,5k could be reason you die/not die)

-> RPR, DNC and GNB are weak as hell

-> Pala is more like a support tank and could use something more

-> Mnk and Blm need to much time to do something useful

-> The other classes are good and work really well, if you work as a team for the objective of the PvP mode.

-> Silence Debuff is way to strong, when you have 30 seconds Cd on Purify and so many Jobs can silence you. Therefore we either need a cd reduction of Purify or immunity after getting silenced once (so that a 3 second silence is the second time only 1 second at max)

Conclusion:
Due to the meta being figured out you almost always see the same Jobs in higher ranks. Therefore you know what you deal with and know why people are playing these jobs.
I won`t blame anyone playing an OP job when they arent exploiting it, but Whitemage mains need to be deranked when its bug is being fixed.
The achievement of being in crystal should be accomplished by being a good/very good player and not by exploiting a bug.

Thanks for your time and have a great day!

[Cheremia]

[FONT="Arial"]
Balancing:
-> 6 Classes that are really too strong need to be reworked (Nin, Sam, Drg, War and Redmage are too strong)

Why is Drg too strong?
Because people cuddle on the crystal and eat the lb because they dont see it?

Happens a lot.

It being used right into skirmishes doesn't make DRG too good. Not at all. Smart usage of lb is a good thing. It could have a better indication of which drg uses it (if you and enemy have one, you can not tell who uses it) tho.

I mean i will keep saying it like in the other thread.

CC is "supposed" to be played like this:
Ranged, preferably healer, pushes the crystal.

The rest of the team does not need to be on the crystal 24/7.
You should bully people at spawn because people tend to rush in one by one after respawning instead of waiting. So you can disrupt them way before they even reach the crystal if you spread out and run away the moment you are outnumbered. It works extremely well.
You do not need to immediately push the crystal. The more enemies cluster around it, the better.
It does not matter if the enemies get a few points on the board if it means they put themself into bad positions because they try to push it. Use this opportunity to make them waste their mp, guards, etc.
Wait for your team to respawn if you wipe. Yes, they usually get to the first checkpoint. But believe it or not, you and your whole team have a better chance of winning than alone.
Try to mark people and always attack the one with the lowest hp. Work as a team to pick people off, wildly flailing against enemies is not the way to go. Team up and be bullies. LISTEN to markers.

The only reason you all whine and scream about primal rend is because you all cuddle together and get stunned for 2 seconds, which the warrior itself doesnt profit off of by the way.
The enemy team has to immediately follow up on it, otherwise, believe it or not, you can move away. Don't let the war yeet into you and then chaotic cyclone, stun them yourself and bully them.

If there is nobody that cuddles, primal rend is a single target stun that's basically just a seocnd gap closer that stops you for a bit. You can still run perfectly fine from a single warrior because they also can't do anything until the stun is over. I am completely serious when i say that i ignore warriors that chose to single fight me in the back if the rest of my team is fighting. They can't do much to me that needs immediate attention. My team needs my dps more to support them than the war that bothers me a bit.
Nins and sams... even rdms on the other hand... Actually. All DPS? No, can't ignore those. They will kill me.

Their LB is good but also leaves them completely open. Yes, you can't stun them, but you can still spread to make them run around for fell cleaves.
Yes the enemy team can profit off of it.
But that again, needs the team to be good for it to also be good.
Spreading is literally the bane of warrior because they can neither stun multiple people nor can heal themself a lot. It's almost as if cuddling together is the issue, not warrior having an aoe stun the enemy team HAS to profit off of.
And 2 seconds stun is not enough to bully multiple people at once. If the enemy gets you like that and aoes you once because nospammable aoes AND kills you with it, then you were not full hp and thats your fault.

Retreating is a thing you can try to attempt. Even if people follow you, you can actively remove one enemy from the skirmish yourself with running away and grabbing pots.

Don't call good teamwork OP, the warrior puts themself into danger if their team isnt behind them and pushed with them.

You know what a warrior does, yet choose to be with everybody else. The perfect scenarios where one primal rend makes the play does sometimes exist, but how does primal rend make the difference except being annoying ALL the time? How exactly does your enemy team kill all of you off of a 2 second stun? Do you just stand there and take it all? If you can't move/attack/whatever after the war crashed into you.

Surprise, it's not the war that's doing it, it's somebody else.
It's called teamplay and only works if the enemy focuses down one by one really well.
I call that impressive teamplay and everybody listen to the probably markers somebody puts on you and your team.

Purify should have alonger immunity duration so guard AND purify are a bigger "problem", which would be a good thing.
WHM Lb should charge slower. Don't care how strong it is tbh, but having it every minute if you don't die is just a lot for no reason.

But nerfing the "op" ones does not help the jobs that are currently underperforming and or need to much work.

Why WOULD you play Gnb just because war got nerfed? What does Gnb gain from warrior being a bit weaker? All tanks should be annoying if not focused down, not some wet noodles that jump in and then die because they can't be enough of a surviving nuisance.

Monk works, but why WOULD you do more work just to get going?

Why WOULD you play Blm over SMN if blm needs forever to do anything most of the time?

Underperforming classes will still underperform, they should be brought up, not the rest brought down.

[silentwindfr]

dragon is not op in terms of something that come out as too strong, but because the jobs is too much well rounded... he have something for every situation.
he can debuff enemy around him for take 50% damage less, he can purify root and snare with elusive jump followed by a powerfull ranged attack. he can close gap with a skill, he can get some hp back with one skill...
all in all it's not op strong, but that the combinaison of all of this that make it strong.
on other hand you have job like whm that have too much in them kit and an lb that is godlike.
like the war that have a very strong kit and a lb that is... broken. people can say it's easy to get stun and such with war... but take one second and look at the lb only... 1 button press:
- in a cone infront of the warrior people can't use guard for 15 sec!
- the warrior get an immunity at any effect that can be purify for 15 sec!
- increase in movement speed for 15 sec!
- for 15 sec you can't use guard (well you don't really need it at this point)
- your storm's path become fell cleave (hitting for 12k per attack) for 15 sec naturally means 6x12k damage. 72k damage in total
- and give you thrill of battle increasing your max hp by 20% and healing you of 20% for 30 sec.

naturally you can still use bloodwetting for 10 sec. 100% of the damage is converter in heal...

this is the pinacle of something that is broken. too many effect for 1 button without any condition attached to it.

[Rhyneth]

As soon as they add stun to Intervene for PLD, provided it was not just a mistranslate and a lack of them testing it out and adding it on, is the day I ditch MNK and move over to PLD.

Also what's with the melee DPSes being more tanky than the Tanks? I'm looking at you DRG and SAM. Where's GNB's Chiten? Where's PLD's Horrid Roar? Heck the fact even MNK's RoE doesn't even have any DR% attached to it, is also mind-boggling.

I think the issue is less of a balance regarding numbers and more of a misbalance regarding too many mechanics/features being stacked onto certain classes making other classes just downright undesirable in comparison, which is very unfortunate.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

You know what a warrior does, yet choose to be with everybody else. The perfect scenarios where one primal rend makes the play does sometimes exist, but how does primal rend make the difference except being annoying ALL the time? How exactly does your enemy team kill all of you off of a 2 second stun? Do you just stand there and take it all? If you can't move/attack/whatever after the war crashed into you.

I mean....Purify is broken and most of the meta classes have CC. I have sat stunlocked back to back to back for a good 10 seconds and that's enough with how high burst damage is in this game lol.

To shrug off 2-3 seconds of stun EVERY 15s is being openly obtuse. Regardless of team play, without premades it's next to impossible to organize parties because even if you ping the same target a million times at a 10th health they still won't go in for the kill, or worse will go dick off in the spawn while the pusher is getting ganked and then wonder why the crystal moved the opposite direction.

So yes, you do just stand there because nine times out of ten it's not JUST the WAR stun, it's that you are constantly being stunned every 15s and cc is absolutely busted. They have ridiculous sustain and mitigation and can constantly harass anyone on the crystal. A good WAR can absolutely carry/turn the fight if not bursted down, combine that with a WHM you have almost constant cc (without taking into account limit break) the damage and self sustain is high and all the while when you get stunned any other dps can burst in during that time and due to CC being wildly inconsistently spread across the kits can basically end up just standing there waiting to die.

"Being annoying ALL the time" when other tanks can't do that and other classes can't is a key part of the problem. One WAR can consistently harass either a single target or the entire party, they can continue to do it and move people and apply heavy and manage the battlefield.

Also lol at one person not being able to "retreat." Because of hte burst and cc potential if you're seen trying to move away they will just close in and gank you anyways, which also leads right back to WAR having a 15s aoe stun from a distance that they can use to gap close and ruin your retreat.

I agree that the other classes should be brought up but I wish people would stop trying to pretend like it's the teams fault all the time because some classes are stupidly effective and some classes completely lack the tools to react to things that some classes have entire kits to react to everything with.

[Velnora]

Why is it always warrior/white mage that gets matched up. It's ridiculous. As if the system tries to pair them up.

[silentwindfr]

the trouble is try to keep some skill from the pve for the pvp... not in the same form, but more like part of the identity. leading to some weird imbalance in the toolkit of some job.
let's take the paladin:
- one Stun with shield bash
- his combo with his last hit giving sword oath that make the next combo attack hit for 6k and heal for 4k
- confiteor that will place a debuff giving back 2k hp per hit on the target, what is clearly too weak for be really impactfull
- intervene that is a good close gap but since it don't stun no way to keep the target to melee after charge.
- Holy Sheltron, it's the skill that bother me the most. i understand the idea but hate how it was make. let's me explain... it have 3 effect, first one give you knight resolve that reduce damage taken by 10% means it have almost no effect in pvp where skill rarely go over 12k (i don't count lb, and even lb...) second effect is a shield that have 12k hp... if you are in middle of the melee it will not save you, it will break most the time in less of 2 gcd... and here come the last effect, when the shield is over he make an aoe that deal 2k+50% of the hp left of the shield (meaning 8k at best if no one have attack you) and inflict heavy 75% to everyone in the 10 yalms...
- finally we have guardian... it allows you to rush to a teammate and absorb all damage that he must receive for 10 second... meaning you will take your normal damage + the other person damage at the same time... everytime i did use this skill outside lb.... i was wipe in less of 5sec.

and let's talk of the lb you become immortal for 10 sec, reduce damage incoming for the teammate by 50% for 10 second and you get access to the combo of the sword. that will deal 4k+6k+8k = 18k damage in 3 gcd... yes it place the same debuff that confiteor that one that make all attack heal teammate by 2k hp...

all in all, the paladin don't have damage and the healing back is questionable at best.. holy sheltron look too weak in comparaison of other survival skill.. and the lb is cool but can't really turn around a game like some lb. in this pvp mode you can see that tank are good when they can be annoyingly hard to kill and deal decent damage... but here with this toolkit the damage of the paladin are not strong enough for be annoying and most of the kit feel weak for his survivability. is not the worst... but i feel it need an edge.
holy sheltron need to be rework, the heavy effect on it and the shield are too weak same for knight resolve, in pve it good enough but in pvp is clearly not enough for really have an impact on the game. intervene either need a snare, root or stun added for make it really a good tool for catch up people fleeing or for simply get a bit more control. and the lb (the sword combo) need to be more stronger... since it take 7.5 second for use it... by either buff the heal receive while using it or increase the damage.

ps: the job guide pvp part of the paladin seems to be wrong, by example intervene in this have 3sec stun

[Dogempire]

People who complain that Jobs such as WAR and WHM are overrepresented, yet still join the same Bandwagon just to get easy wins, are nothing more but hypocrites. If you REALLY want to play Jobs such as DRK for example, then just do it and become good at it. If People see that you win matches as DRK by making a difference (even trough unorthodox Gameplay), they WILL try to copy you since they see that said Job is now more than viable.

Tl;dr: If you hate the Meta, dont follow it.

Being average at a meta job will contribute way more to the team than being extremely good at an undertuned job though.

You could be the best dancer in the world but a Dancer can't one shot 5 people at a time, or do 30k AoE damage + a 3 second stun + a party regen then follow up with an uncleansable transmog

[Rolder50]

Why is Drg too strong?
Because people cuddle on the crystal and eat the lb because they dont see it?

Happens a lot.

I would like if if they made the indicator a little more obvious. It's extremely easy to miss in a hectic battle. So just make the color a bit more obvious or something, don't change anything else, boom probably fixed.