Should the playerbase stop playing certain jobs?

[Dxzstar]

This is a really long really rambly post so if that's not your jam, skip to the 3rd comment for the TL;DR

WHAT?

This is exactly what it says on the tin. Many players feel like their pleas are going completely unheard or even worse, heard loud and clear and then being dismissed.

-SAM and NIN players are clearly frustrated with the recent changes to their jobs. Even despite the resounding displeasure and pushback across a significant percentage of the playerbase, SE still went through with it.

-SMN is probably one of the most controversial jobs in the game at the moment. Many older SMN players feel as though their job was completely dismantled and only a skeleton (if that) of it's former self. Even many players who like the current direction for summoner cite that the job is just too simplistic and feel like it's incomplete which is unacceptable for a job we have reworked every single expansion anyways.

-MCH is unironically the poster child of neglected jobs right now. Low damage, static gameplay, questionable job identity, and no true place to call home in the niche of the game. When they got to see their new actions for this expansion they got exactly ONE new rotation changing button. Everything else was just a potency buff and reskin. Even its most recent "buffs" feel more like an act of pity than a true change to address the problems for the job.

-Healers have been basically on mute to the devs for years. When they organized to force the developers to address their concerns, (boring damage "rotation", and not enough engagement in normal content) YoshiP himself said "If you want engaging content, play Ultimate"...I feel like I don't have to explain how much of an actual slap to the face this is. And then we recently learned that the games healer tester was "too good". What does that even mean? At the very least this lends credence to the outcry that the devs are actively trying to design content around players with the lowest form of competency.

-Tanks have admittedly been treated to a host of QoL changes this recent update. So unironically good for them.


If this reads like a crappy news article, good. I want people to realize FFXIV is neglecting jobs. Even the ones they don't play and the players are just plain TIRED. I wanna make sure we're all on the same page before I dip into the real meat of this post which is blatantly People should stop playing the jobs that Squeenix refuses to fix.

cut to the next comment because I can't go on a proper rant in the forums

[Dxzstar]

I'm not talking about a simple "Well the MCH mains should just swap to BRD in most of their content." I mean, throw away those weapons and don't touch the job anymore. I'd say break the jobstone if I could, but you can't do that. So instead, just unmake the entire gearset. And that guy in your static telling you that he doesn't have any gear or has to learn a new job because of this? He was gonna do it next tier anyways so let's skip to the part where he gets fed up 3 months earlier. And while I would never recommend people close out certain jobs from partyfinder because that is a heartless act that goes against TOS and very detrimental to the status of the game overall and more importantly newer players who aren't a part of this literal riot I am trying to start.....Ask them too, to stop playing that undervalued job.

WHY?

Now that I've suggested my completely unreasonable and unfeasible action to send a message to SE, lets talk about why I unironically think you should stop playing your neglected job and how I think it'll force some changes.

1. SE uses more than just player feedback to identify the state of a job. One of these metrics is undeniably how many people are completing content with the job. They may not show it to you or me, but they have that info. If they see even a 30% cut to a jobs playerbase they know something is amiss. Will they do anything? No. We all know you'll be back to play the job for the next patch when they inevitable give it a single pps change and you run duties with it to figure out if you still hate it. That minor bump in metrics is all they need to pat themselves on the back and say that they did a good job.

2. We need something a little more aggressive than just complaining here on the forums. They say they read the forums and care about what you say. Do they? Kinda. They sure read what healers wanted.... and then promptly placed that information into the trashcan. With a smile no less! And if you still think they care... Samurai mains. They heard you. Loud. And. Clear. They even acknowledged you. They then determined that you would still play regardless of what they did and told you that they wanted you to feel out the changes a bit before you burned down the forums. Do you think they'll do it again in 6.2? So it's time people realized that the forums are pretty much a dead avenue for change. It's time to strike somewhere else. The game itself. Don't just complain here. Complain there too. Then come right back here and tell me how this post is literally ruining the game because literally if this actually went through there would never be a single healer in DF. EVER

Still ranting here next comment

[Dxzstar]

3. Because you, the player, deserve to be angry about sweeping changes to your job that you and a large majority of your job base don't agree with. You deserve to ask for change. You deserve a better answer than "Go prog Ultimate," a better answer than "We think you will like the changes more than you think you do so please look forward to it." It's starting to become tedium don't you think? Doing all this just so the devs can blow you off for another year? Just so they can appeal to "Wider market" Even though a lot of that wider market agrees things are getting a little janked? Does everyone agree? Course not. The only group of people this big that can agree on any one thing is likely some type of hive mind and shouldn't be trusted.

Quick FAQ

Q:How do you expect people to follow this ridiculous plan of yours?
A: I don't. I just had a hot take and decided to share it on the Forums. Did a lot more thought and unnecessary ideation go into this than should have? Maybe. But here we are.

Q:Are you serious right now?
A: About 90% serious yes. At first I was gonna write this thing completely serious and with no format of joking and then I realized that I am not all that capable of maintaining seriousness for that long.

Q:This guy is some kinda throwaway account troll
A: Nah. That's my character name right there and you'll likely find me in the wolves den pier in Jenova in about an hour after I post this. Throwing away what little life I have.

Q:Why do you think the devs should listen to you some kinda hardcore player that just wishes for the "good ol' days" so you can push out the more casual player that the game is clearly designed for?

A: Shut. Up. I'm not a hardcore player. I don't think I really even fall into midcore at this point. I'm about as bad as anyone else and I don't feel like I need a return to expac 1-5 to have fun. I got here in like 5.3. I think that makes me old enough to to understand and want something from the game, but just new enough you can't describe me as some diehard loyal who's been in the game so long he can't think of anything else. You may have a different opinion on that. I just see the rest of the forums asking for things and not getting them and I posted my thoughts on how to get it done. Feel free to tell me otherwise though as I now feel satiated and will give the thread up to the world at large now.

TL;DR: I'm some nerd on the internet who thinks that people should be willing to just drop a job because it's literally awful. And I think you should get more than a dismissive comment when there's an actual overwhelming cry for change.

[CelestiCer]

I agree and I see the dilemma.

Only recently have I delved into what other classes were going through, I was just busy enjoying a game for being a game until my SAM got hit. Suddenly another side I never seen was revealed cause I only play SAM, MSQ, Raid, Decorate and only played at end of ShB I believe about around the same time you started, my bubble is quite small.

It's a form of protest to let your voice be heard not just through text but also your actions. Right now I do not clear content as SAM no. But not out of protest, that's the side affect... the main reason is because " the desire to do anything with my SAM has been robbbed. "

A game is a game you go to a game to relax, but once you become passionate about something and they remove that about the game to the point they change it into frustration then it was all hindsight that we should have done something...

And this can be for any class or any player that plays a certain class or any part of the game. For the player base to unite for a certain change when many players enjoy the game for different reasons or in different ways is quite the feet... yet I don't disagree though, I do agree with your post... it's just a tall task... to have everyone on the same page.

Definitely gave your posts a Like

[EhvaTaco]

Physical ranged jobs have the amazing benefit of maximum uptime. Having lower damage output is a given. The devs simply need to up MCH numbers where necessary to compensate for the intended lack of party utility. That especially includes Wildfire, since it can't crit or d-hit. There's also odd jank like Flamethrower but the job isn't fundamentally broken. It has a clear design of big, hard hitting attacks and fast attack windows. It just needs some number turning and/or slight work.


SMN is also nowhere near as flawed as everyone tries to make it out to be. I have played the job since I started in 3.4 and never have I enjoyed it as much as now. Pet AI in this game is simply UTTER GARBAGE and it had to be reworked. Yes, I understand how people are sad about the rework. But there was no way around it. Personally, I miss dot management but what I got instead feels a lot more satisfying visually and thematically. The worst aspect I find about SMN is how tacked on Aetherflow is at this point. I'd rather it was gained by summoning or some other condition. Another "issue" I see a lot being brought up is the button consolidation. And really? Out of everything you can come up with, this is what you complain about? The same type of people that get petty over Ruin and Tri-Disaster not being replaced by their elemental version.
Is SMN too simple at times? Absolutely! But that isn't an issue, it's how the job plays and it's not like a low skill ceilling is problematic. By that definition every job should be reworked with extra conditions on a lot of their tools. If you just add detrimental conditions for the sake of difficulty, you'll drain yourself of enjoyment. You have to find a right balance in all things.
Just like the physical ranged, the high mobility means its damage is lower. That's just a fact everyone can keep crying about until the end of time, it won't change.


While writing this, I wonder why GNBs aren't more vocal about this super tight No Mercy window. As I understand, it's quite stressful to fit in everything during the buff. You'd think they'd ask for some QoL like ~3 seconds more or some part of this combo having a lower recast time... I thought this is precisely why they don't like to MT, if possible.

[WaxaGhonsasa]

Physical ranged jobs have the amazing benefit of maximum uptime. Having lower damage output is a given. The devs simply need to up MCH numbers where necessary to compensate for the intended lack of party utility. That especially includes Wildfire, since it can't crit or d-hit. There's also odd jank like Flamethrower but the job isn't fundamentally broken. It has a clear design of big, hard hitting attacks and fast attack windows. It just needs some number turning and/or slight work.

This is the excuse everyone uses because it's the excuse Yoshi-P has trained us to believe, but they keep designing fights that trivialize uptime on other jobs. P1S is 100% uptime, P2S doesn't even have positionals despite not being a wall boss. P3S is a little harder to keep uptime on, but easy enough to work around. P4S is the only fight this tier with mechanics that try to keep you off the boss. The recent EX3 is so ridiculously uptime friendly, you can literally accidentally aggro the boss only by slightly moving from the load-in point. They've added True North to the game since Stormblood, lowered punishment from missing positionals since Stormblood also, and have consistently removed positionals from actions. Black Mage gained an extra usage of Triplecast with no downside just from being 80, Red Mage gained potency on Engagement so it's no longer a loss instead of Displacement and gained an extension to their instant cast phase after melee, and Summoner was reworked to the extent that people joke about it being basically a physical ranged job at this point. There's no longer any reasonable excuse for physical ranged jobs to do lower damage, if there ever was.

[CKNovel]

Physical ranged jobs have the amazing benefit of maximum uptime. Having lower damage output is a given.

This is a fake fact and it needs to die.
In fact it needed to die during ShB.

Even when respecting mechanics, melees would miss 10-12 GCDs maximum. It's not enough to justify the gap between ranged and melees.
Don't forget that bosses now have massive hitbox and some even give all positionals for free, not tax, nothing.

We had unfriendly melee content (E5S to E8S), it was the casters who shined the most, not the ranged. RDM was near SAM level in E8S.
And that was the last tier with such mechanics, E9S to E12S were extremely generous with melee uptime, P1S to P4S were also generous and out of the 3 EX, 2 have hitbox that cover half the arena.

Mobility has never been more overrated that now.
Casters and melees are getting easier and easier but they never lost any DPS for it.

Also, that GNB 3 extra seconds? That would just add another GCD in the No mercy window.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Snip

Ok, a few things I like to say as an SMN main since SB. First off please show me one fight this tier or in EW where melee cant get uptime on? I know a few Eden fights was kinda hard on melees but the fact is in EW has made the job for a melee easier and easier in terms of keeping uptime. So movement isn't really a good utility and beings nothing to a party and the tax phy range has to pay for that is way too high. Even casters have an easier time. SMN is closer to a phy range, rdm only has to cast every other spell, and blm now has a lot more mobility than what it used to have. So this excuse of phy range has to tax for its full uptime is full a bull in today's ff14.

Now to your comments about smn... I'm glad you can find some fun in a job that basically plays itself. The issue people have with the rework of smn is that you are not given any meaningful choice or anything to manage when playing the job. All you really do is press the buttons when they light up and look at the pretty light show. Most of the other jobs at least have to think a little when it comes to a fight and during their rotation. All smn has to know is what order to summon its primals and you can easily figure that out in one or two pulls. It's fine to have a low skill floor but the problem with smn is that it has no skill ceiling, its floor and ceiling are the same. That is not good job design and always leads to ppl to complaining and getting upset. Another issue of smn is the fact it plays like a lvl 50 or 60 job. The job feels hollowed and unfinished. It feels like devs ran out of time, which if you read the interviews and listen to Yoshi P talk about the job design leading up to EW you can easily come to the conclusion they did ran out of time for smn and maybe a few other jobs. Did I think smn needed a rework? yes but I rather had a finished rework and have a job that is well designed than a rushed unfinished rework that we got. Also the "promise" of we will get more in 7.0 isn't enough for me to believe. Mch said the same thing in 5.0 and look what they got this expac, an upgrade aoe button, one new queen attack, and one new button you press every 2 mins. SMN has always felt like the dev never cared about it. They put more time and thought into blm(yoshi p main btw) than they do smn. So I have no hope they will address the flaws and issues this rework has and till they show me something otherwise or at least talk about smn in a LL I'm not going to believe they will listen to us smn mains. By the way, I think it speaks volumes about the smn rework when the pvp rework is better and is a lot more fun to play than its pve version.

[EhvaTaco]

Ok, a few things I like to say as an SMN main since SB. First off please show me one fight this tier or in EW where melee cant get uptime on?

Rather mood question, when the first tier of every expansion is specifically designed to be easier, so everyone can get better used to the new changes.

[darkdyllon]

Rather mood question, when the first tier of every expansion is specifically designed to be easier, so everyone can get better used to the new changes.

not really, even the 1st tier of Eden wasn't the most melee friendly, the 1st 2 tiers were really rough on melees in general.
I'm all in for them designing fights and mechanics so that melee can get uptime, nothing more frustrating than having to disengage and wait for 2-3 GCDs because the boss decided to screw with you specifically.
That's why I kinda like the design around P2S, no positionals, an actual unique arena (still square, but it gets shrank down a lot) and it became more for mechanics than keeping the boss faced north at all times.
The main issue becomes when everyone justifies the physical ranged DPS tax because of their free movement (and i get it to an extent) but then we have fights where melee's generally don't lose uptime, which is the main driving point for the DPS tax.

Just hope they go somewhere with this instead of going into the same direction and be like "the 3rd fight is an prog stopper, please look forward to it" while e11s where he said that it was an prog stopper and the only thing that made it an prog stopper was the DPS check, it was basically an "see this mechanic? yeah, i'll be using that a lot" fun fight, but was called an prog stopper for the wrong reasons.