Thread: Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

Is it back? Any news about Kaiten?

Originally Posted by Tetsujin

Is it back? Any news about Kaiten?

Its likely never coming back.

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Edit: Accidentally posted prematurely.

I'll add some perspective from someone who doesn't main nor really plays SAM, but levels every job and has at least a surface-level understanding of the jobs I don't play. So take my feedback with a grain of salt. Having leveled SAM in the past, and having leveled it after Kaiten's removal, I can't really speak to how much influence this action really had one me, but managing the kenki gauge doesn't really feel intuitive. I kinda just forget to use Shinten and then feel pressured to dump it. In the past, it felt a little more structured to manage effectively, and the need for consistent use of Kaiten helped keep the gauge feeling like it had a natural flow.

Having said that, I can understand and sympathize with feeling like Kaiten is restricting future development of SAM in future expansions. It makes sense why they might see Kaiten as problematic, and removing it may allow them to breath stronger gameplay elements into SAM in the future. What I don't understand and cannot rationalize is if Kaiten is a problem for the future, why cull it now and not when you actually cross that bridge and expand SAM's toolkit come 7.0? What is the benefit from cutting things prematurely when you can just wait until you're going to release these new tools that don't function well with Kaiten to actually remove it?

I won't say 7.0 SAM will objectively be better than Kaiten SAM. We have no way of knowing if it will be or not, but I just don't understand why the non-problematic Kaiten now couldn't just wait for those changes. That said, whatever we do get, I think the biggest thing that feels off with SAM's gameplay is the lack of intuitive engagement with its kenki gauge, so hopefully whatever replaces Kaiten in the future will fill that void. Perhaps it will, or perhaps it won't.

Ahahaha xD ya made me a lil bit mad with the "It makes sense why they might see Kaiten as problematic, and removing it may allow them to breath stronger gameplay elements into SAM in the future."-Line, since Kaiten emulates to breathe into your attacks, which is why Kaitenless Samurai are best describted as Breathless Samurai, but it's all good^^

I'm thinking about a Meme to translate the wish of Kaiten returning, thankfully Samurai after 6.1 still can do cool stuff, my Example would be my Big Kahuna Combo: Ogi Namikiri followed by Senei or Guren (optional Shoha or Shoha II in addition) and finished with Kaeshi Namikiri, that is a tasty combo and it makes me happy. Now I kinda wanna use the same source for my Meme, so I gonna ask:
What does the Samurai Rotation look like?
What are you using Kenki for?
Do you spam Shinten like a bitch?

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

... but I just don't understand why the non-problematic Kaiten now couldn't just wait for those changes. That said, whatever we do get, I think the biggest thing that feels off with SAM's gameplay is the lack of intuitive engagement with its kenki gauge, so hopefully whatever replaces Kaiten in the future will fill that void. Perhaps it will, or perhaps it won't.

I agree and many others agree with pretty much everything you stated.

Kaiten's removal at 6.1 solved nothing of the non-existing problems the Dev's claimed Samurai had like Button Bloat. Of which prior to it's removal? none of the Samurai mains complained about the dev's fictional Button Bloat issue nor Kaiten anything.

Originally Posted by Melethron123

the design of SAM as a job revolves entirely around flexible skill usage. you can use your combos in any order (as long as you don't overcap stickers) and you can even use iaijutsu mid-combo instead of having to spend stickers as soon as you're finished building them. Kaiten was an ability that went against that design philosophy because it was always used before iaijutsu and never used before other actions

What in the...

Square never stated that SAMs design revolved around how flexible its skill usage was. They only mentioned SAM having design restrictions? hence Kaiten removed to make room for future changes or something new. 7+ months later and that something new? turned out to be... Nothing.

Kaiten casts for now? are essentially replaced with Shinten spamming and a deluded Gauge interaction gameplay. Some like dumbed down gameplay? but plenty like myself don't and it doesn't make our buffed DPS feel as rewarding as it did with Kaiten. Which also a contradiction since DPS output is based off Job difficulty and they just buffed us yet made our Job dumber.

Kaiten removal never changed our rotation either for how flexible you claim our job design was supposed to be. Freestyle-SAM still exists with or without it. And I agree that you can play SAM however you please and as improperly as you want for suboptimal damage if that's what you mean with Flexible... Kaiten did not stood in the way of playing Samurai... more...improper... ( wait what? ) As for ping? I live in EU playing on NA datacenters without ever having issues weaving Kaiten.

These arguments from either the players and Square Dev's are not only overused and contradicting, but also flawed. The beloved skill remains unanimously missed and its removal fixed nor improved nothing. It just killed the Gauge interaction gameplay we had that so many of us loved.

Samurai to me? had been made a lot less fun to play without Kaiten.

Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Square never stated that SAMs design revolved around how flexible its skill usage was. They only mentioned SAM having design restrictions? hence Kaiten removed to make room for future changes or something new. 7+ months later and that something new? turned out to be... Nothing.

if you need yoshi to tell you the philosophy behind the design of every job instead of being able to piece it together by looking at how the jobs are designed, idk what to tell you

did they state that kaiten was being removed so they could add something else 7+ months later or are people just assuming that's their reasoning? only thing i remember hearing was something about reducing the number of actions and people getting pissy that they didn't merge the shohas

Originally Posted by Melethron123

if you need yoshi to tell you the philosophy behind the design of every job instead of being able to piece it together by looking at how the jobs are designed, idk what to tell youthe shohas

Unless Square and Yoshi/Dev and co specifically state so? it's speculations and assumptions. Unlike what you wrote? Everything I wrote is what Square stated.

They announced SAM development being restrictive which is an excuse since SAM didn't need any changes, announcing Kaiten to be removed with Patch 6.1 release. " Give it a try and give us Feedback " Square said. Samurai mains warned Square to not do this, 6.1 became Live and Kaiten removal was met with heavy backlash that made Square respond with " Changes made to Samurai was made due to Button Bloat issues ". Another excuse since no Samurai complained about having Button Bloat issues prior. And if Kaiten was removed for something in the Future? why not keep it since its non-problematic until they have something to show for it to replace it with? We might as well wait until 7.0 to see something... but our Kenki gauge feels lacking in comparison.

They asked for Feedback? We gave our feedback, and Ignored us.
They removed Kaiten to practically fix nothing, only dumbing down the job.

Originally Posted by Melethron123

during the course of building stickers you'd get around 60 kenki and kaiten costs 20. so nobody who's even trying to do a somewhat decent rotation would ever see themselves running out of kenki to use kaiten.

also, you don't use your shintens "willy-nilly" because you want to maximize the number of shintens during buff windows

Yes we do use Shinten " willy nilly "... do we play the same Job xD?

The point is to balance Kenki near 100 for maximum damage output yes which you will unleash at " Raid buffs ". Kaiten made this quite interesting, forcing players to at least use 1 braincell to pull off, and it was satisfying. However? majority of the players will Kaiten whenever they please which is still fine and still requires more effort... but now with all of this gone? it has devolved into Shinten spamming. Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten Shinten <- you do not manage Kenki thoughtfully anymore its made thoughtless and actually effortless. So yes, it is just casting Shinten willy nilly now vs casting Kaiten during buff windows with Shinten's.

they should just keep removed actions as "roleplay actions", that make your character do the animation without any actual effect

that way SAM mains could still keep their button and be happy

Originally Posted by Melethron123

they should just keep removed actions as "roleplay actions", that make your character do the animation without any actual effect

that way SAM mains could still keep their button and be happy

that's something I've read at the Patch Day of 6.1, which was really cute ^^