Basic Economics

[Haraldsson]

It didn't matter that Gustaberg was "the" place to go for Goldsmithing, everyone still sold the goods in Jeuno if they sold them at all.

Besides that, we have to think beyond trade goods and have a care for new players looking for equipment. Crafters generally NPC the low level things that don't turn a profit because there isn't a market for it in the big city and those selling slots are precious. If the AH's are linked, they can reach a wider audience for their wares and not be limited by only those people who happened to start in the "correct" city.

profit is made by reaching as large an audience as possible, not by cutting trade off and only being specific to one region. There's a reason we have a global economy now.

1st- I want to make myself clear. When I speak of specialization I am not talking about crafting guilds (anyone can craft anywhere). I am talking about resources. Such as, LL has mineral deposits that are better for goldsmithing than armouring. Therefore, if I live in blackforest I need to visit LL to get those materials. -or- players collect and import those goods to blackforest.
The taxes would be cheaper for goldsmithing goods in blackforest because that city wants to promote the import of those goods. Therefore, goldsmiths would work in LL, the lazy goldsmiths would sell in LL but not make a lot of gil. The more motivated goldsmiths would travel to blackforest, and sell their goods for a better profit.

2nd- low level items will be npc'd no matter what you do. As crafters gain rank, they craft more expensive things. There is no stopping that. NPC low level items will happen; unless a constant stream of new crafters continue to make these items. A global AH isn't going to change anything in this aspect.

3rd- I fail to see how this stops my goods from reaching a large audience. The system I propose encourages travel and trade. This system does REQUIRE a large server population. Enough players to actually move items around.
This system is real life global economics. This is what is happening everyday to all of our countries.

[AngryNixon]

1st- I want to make myself clear. When I speak of specialization I am not talking about crafting guilds (anyone can craft anywhere). I am talking about resources. Such as, LL has mineral deposits that are better for goldsmithing than armouring. Therefore, if I live in blackforest I need to visit LL to get those materials. -or- players collect and import those goods to blackforest.
The taxes would be cheaper for goldsmithing goods in blackforest because that city wants to promote the import of those goods. Therefore, goldsmiths would work in LL, the lazy goldsmiths would sell in LL but not make a lot of gil. The more motivated goldsmiths would travel to blackforest, and sell their goods for a better profit.

Are you saying that the tax rates would be high enough in the other two states that they might discourage people from trading there in favour of the third city where the tax rate is more "business friendly" to that particular craft?

I ask because you say that the lazy crafters would sell in LL and not make a lot of gil while the motivated ones would go sell in the other city. If we assume that to be the case than the tax rates must be such that there is a meaningful disparity between the profit you'll make in either city.

The threshold where various people start to care obviously changes but I think at 10% tax rates or less there won't be many people biting.

[Souljacker]

You can split things up but without a central trade channel to distribute goods, it will fail every time because individuals aren't going to travel to some far away land just to be a good sport. They are going to stay where they can listen to the shouts, look through what's available, and not be inconvenienced regardless of how much extra gil it costs them. Eventually one city will be decided on by the players as the "best" despite any efforts to tax them to death, and I don't agree that heavy taxation is the way to go. Positive reinforcement works better than negative, after all.

There isn't enough player infrastructure nor interest to mirror a real world distribution network of global resources. One player (or a handful) will simply never have the amount of power to really mirror the real world trade systems where you have a country in need of a certain good that another country can provide. You are likening major corporations to individuals working individually and it simply won't work. Each player is not an Exxon unto himself. We've already seen with the market wards how willing people are to even list in the right ward much less in the right city-state.

The global marketplace works because there is a central backbone where countries can come together to get the goods to the right place for the people, not the other way around. Unless you are suggesting that SE truly build an economy MMO, then we need an AH and we need it linked from the start. There is a reason places like Amazon and Newegg and Ebay thrive - it's because craftsman of all kinds can buy and sell their goods all over the world. That is the future - not me traveling somewhere obscure to get system boards for my next build and then going to another obscure location to sell because I'll save a nickel on the tax and there *might* be enough people of the correct level to desire my goods in that particular area.

Don't lets be silly.

[Haraldsson]

the lazy crafters would sell in LL and not make a lot of gil while the motivated ones would go sell in the other city. If we assume that to be the case than the tax rates must be such that there is a meaningful disparity between the profit you'll make in either city.

The threshold where various people start to care obviously changes but I think at 10% tax rates or less there won't be many people biting.

Yes. I am saying that LL would have much higher tax rates for goldsmithing because there would be a very large supply of those goods in LL due to the natural resources, but the other two cities would have a much lower tax rate for those goods. Causing more motivated goldsmiths to sell at the other 2 cities.

Souljacker
I do think that the different tax rates would motivate players to disperse items across the game. I'm not talking a nickle, I mean a significant tax rate. Just like real countries (i.e., Norway charges 213% on agricultural imports). So obviously the U.S. doesn't sell corn to Norway, the U.S. sells the corn to Mexico.

You are correct about the amount of players being a large factor. Again in order for this system to work, a high server population is a must. As well as an easier system to list goods.

[Souljacker]

Norway has those taxes because they don't want to import agricultural products for a variety of reasons, not because the global economy is "encouraging" the US to sell our exports elsewhere and spread things "across the world". The analogy doesn't fit and the whole system doesn't make sense. Why would you want to work on goldsmithing, but have to go to a different city to buy goldsmithing items as opposed to where the abundance of supplies are?

What it sounds to me like you are saying is we should tax the location that has the most abundance, and then let people overcharge for things because they had to avoid the tax in one location and instead the players have to pony up the "convenience fee" that will be tacked on to cover the "travel costs" of selling where the lower tax is.

No matter how you slice it, it will not be good for the players nor the population in general. Heavy taxation is never the way to a healthy economy.

[kukurumei]

2nd- low level items will be npc'd no matter what you do. As crafters gain rank, they craft more expensive things. There is no stopping that. NPC low level items will happen; unless a constant stream of new crafters continue to make these items. A global AH isn't going to change anything in this aspect.

False. What you consider "low level items" is a term denoted from you the seller/buyer, not the system. Meaning the values you assign to it is unprofitable. That is a problem, not an occurrence.

Secondly, the world shouldn't be producing "low level items" in excess. If it is then that's another "problem". A crafter won't craft an item that's not going to be used, and thus, it wouldn't be NPC.

That means "low level items" are being produced by the system, which is consider a "mistake" and should be fixed.

It's the chicken and the egg. You don't get a population of two headed fish, if by definition those 2headed mutated fish don't have a chance to survive. Someone has to be making them on purpose.

And yes an AH would solve this to an extent. The AH would give a value to every item through supply and demand. If an item has such worthlessness that even the minimum acceptable price won't get noticed, then it will be naturally culled from the world like survival of the fittest.

[Haraldsson]

Kukurumei:
I agree with you. Your argument makes a lot of sense. A price history would fix that issue, but the AH doesn't need to be instant global in order to give a price history.

I know you didn't say that, but this thread is turning into that argument.

Souljacker:
I'm having trouble understanding you.

Of course Norway isn't putting Tariffs on agriculture to motivate the U.S.; However, whatever their motives, the effect is the same.

The effect of a tax would be that the seller moves the goods to a different city so that they are able to sell the same goods at a lower price, for a larger profit. If you sell your goods at a place with a high tax, you still have to sell at the world price. If you try to sell higher than the world price, you will have no gil.

Once more these taxes are not something that I suggest be implemented at the current economic state of the game.

[Haraldsson]

Getting back to the list of Economic tools that need fixing in order to improve the current problems.

1) Low population
2) difficult item search
3) Retainer setup for sales is difficult
4) A price history is needed

Please give any more suggestions that you think may help.

[AngryNixon]

Getting back to the list of Economic tools that need fixing in order to improve the current problems.

1) Low population
2) difficult item search
3) Retainer setup for sales is difficult
4) A price history is needed

Please give any more suggestions that you think may help.

I don't agree with your proposed system Haraldsson but, leaving that aside for a minute, what I do agree with entirely is that low population isn't helping the situation for any system be it yours or something totally different, and that a price history is required also.

The price history however, as has been said a rare few times, is that the history should reflect what items were bought for as well as sold for. Yes that's two sides of the same coin but it makes a difference. Remember, and I can't stress this enough, that basic economics (well micro anyhow, macro is just a bunch of random stupid letters and relations...awful) is supply and demand.

If the system of putting in buy orders that currently exists is improved to the point where it's actually functional then, in theory, a disparity will exist between the price that items have sold for to people who have buy orders up to be filled and the price that items were bought for from people who have sell orders up. The two separate price histories (that better be viewable overlaid on top of each other) will show you a more fully informed price trend and at some point the two lines should come close to meeting and travel together over the course of a few years.

[Jinko]

Then Ishguard would be deserted... That just creates a variant of the problem.

How would it? new content, leves and quest would be issued in Ishguard making it the place to go for that stuff.

I think we can assume that airships will go from the current city states to Ishguard also, so there woudn't be a huge problem going back and fourth.