What is going on with Square Enix and the 14 team?

[Atelier-Bagur]

I'm really not sure where some people are getting the impression that the desire is to have the game become more like WoW when the most common criticism within this thread and various others is that many of us are former WoW players who witnessed the slow and steady decline of WoW for ourselves and are now seeing the exact same trajectory with this game. Complete with posters insisting that everything is fine, that the complaints are just 'overdramatic', that they don't see any issues and so on and so forth.

Equally, it's a balancing act in that people who have invested time and effort into a hobby they enjoy don't really want to just roll over and leave without at least having their say - which is precisely what many people are doing by coming to the forum to put forward their takes.

Yeah I was very much being a crapper with what I said to you earlier lol but this one is where I agree. Its very easy to see the looming threat of FFXIV eventually falling into a state beyond repair ala WoW. And I think whats eating a lot of people with this is the fact FFXIV already went through a big crisis before with 1.0 unlike WoW where they generally started off extremely well. So there's a lot of loyalty and faith put into this game because the current devs managed to salvage the project which is where they earned a lot of their goodwill. But this is why its important to encourage and keep pushing feedback. You cant pretend that this game is perfect now because its totally not. Everyone cares, and I wish there were dev representatives communicating with the playerbase more frequently here because otherwise most of these complaints stem from us not knowing whether their voices are being heard or not.

[BrokentoothMarch]

But that's the point that many refugees doesn't understand, Square Enix is a multi-billion dollar company, but each project operates like a company itself and has a budget based on their expected profit.
It might be mind blowing but SE treated FFXIV like an underdog until ShB release. The team has grown since then but in development there is a saying "3 women can't birth in 3 months", it will take time to show results which I believe we might see in next expansion.

Oh, I agree completely and understand budget allocation. In fact, I'd be unsurprised if we found out budget was pitiful as, given the money it pulls in with already-existing budget, there's little incentive to endanger the bottom line by increasing expenditure on a game that borderline guarantees growth and praise. I think the issue therefor is when we have people who continue to praise and ignore the problems of the game. Ironically, a lot of lambasting or criticism may be the thing that is required to encourage a larger budget or team for the game.

The one thing any company hates more than not making money is losing money. But if we keep promising they'll never lose money, there will never be cause for improvement. While I'm not saying grab the torch and throw the fire at the headquarters, I really am tiring of pretending everything is okay as how many defenders of the company will advocate.

I suppose I have no faith things have changed and I don't want to keep hoping that it'll be different next patch given the required time investment. I've just been here since HW and my body is growing resistant to copium since SB.

[Hurlstone]

It's a lot more divisive because to most people it's either the best or the worst. Previous expansion stories were either universally meh or universally good. But here, the very nature of the story makes it much more difficult to have a measured position.

A good point. Added with the fact that its the end to a 10+ story, which outside of the stories subject matter was bound to split opinions.

Controversial? Maybe not, but I was personally a bit grossed out. It felt like fetishization of suffering and the ego stroking of a narcissistic Hydaelyn who beats us because she loves us.

I loathed it to be sure, but that hardly means other people aren't allowed to like it. I guess I'm more taken off-guard because I adored the story of ShB and HW, so I'm just whiplashed by finding something I can't have enough of as a story before being beaten over the head with the bowl.

That's an interesting take on the story I have not really seen expressed so far. I ending up going from really disliking her at the start to you-know-who being my favourites character in the game. I can totally see what you mean though, and thinking about it, it would have been much better if one or two of the Scions actually saw it that way too... everyone accepts Hydaelyn's actions with conveniently little fuss.

Honestly, I also feel that people over-praise Heavensward and Shadowbringers for being the best jrpg story in the genre. I'm sorry, those two expansions still had issues with its story and pacing, especially Shadowbringers and saying either of those two are better than the plots of lets say FFVI or FFIX is just extremely delusional. Now are they still good? Oh Absolutely, but with me at the very least the reason I very much enjoy FFXIV's story is because I see the whole pie, not the little slices here and there.

Thats fair. Funnily enough, I did feel that I would come to the same conclusion before playing Shadowbringers... although in my case I do think its one of the best FF stories of all time… I will admit I do think Heavensward is a little overrated. I mean I adore it, but its not perfect and has its flaws (Looking at you, resolution to the post-ARR questline…) and again, I feel its a real shame how Stormblood gets put down by fandom when it actually has alot going for it.

[BrokentoothMarch]

That's an interesting take on the story I have not really seen expressed so far. I ending up going from really disliking her at the start to you-know-who being my favourites character in the game. I can totally see what you mean though, and thinking about it, it would have been much better if one or two of the Scions actually saw it that way too... everyone accepts Hydaelyn's actions with conveniently little fuss.

I actually started liking her and that began to decay quickly. I also felt a bit dismissed when doubt over her intent began to brew among the Scions in ShB as we were primed to believe that this is more a duality rather than Good v Evil, hence why the Light was the villain in that story, and then that was all ignored come EW. Indeed, I have immense qualms over the direction of the story, but realistically all I needed was for some questioning or "Hey, uh. Wasn't it a bit messed up when you did this?"/"Can you please justify why it's okay you did this but not when they do it?" to her. It otherwise felt too saccharine and as if at least my character, which they sometimes try to flavor as having my own will, had, well, no will beyond the desires of the Crystal.

Though I'll mute that part of myself for now. I can pull out an entire 'Charlie' powerpoint on my issues with the lore and Hydaelyn specifically. Ultimately, if I don't like the story, I can simply pass on it and I'm not exactly going out of my way to tell others they're not allowed to enjoy the story. I'm mostly irritated with the more gameplay aspects like Viera/Hrothgar still effectively being limited races or the housing fiasco which is a bit... unacceptable for any development team worth their salt, I feel? And the terribly outdated character creation, but now I'm getting greedy.

[Theodric]

I actually started liking her and that began to decay quickly. I also felt a bit dismissed when doubt over her intent began to brew among the Scions in ShB as we were primed to believe that this is more a duality rather than Good v Evil, hence why the Light was the villain in that story. Indeed, I have immense qualms over the direction of the story, but realistically all I needed was for some questioning or "Hey, uh. Wasn't it a bit messed up when you did this?"/"Can you please justify why it's okay you did this but not when they do it?" to her. It otherwise felt too saccharine and as if at least my character, which they sometimes try to flavor as having my own will, had, well, no will beyond the desires of the Crystal.

Though I'll mute that part of myself for now. I can pull out an entire 'Charlie' powerpoint on my issues with the lore and Hydaelyn specifically. Ultimately, if I don't like the story, I can simply pass on it and I'm not exactly going out of my way to tell others they're not allowed to enjoy the story. I'm mostly irritated with the more gameplay aspects like Viera/Hrothgar still effectively being limited races or the housing fiasco which is a bit... unacceptable for any development team worth their salt, I feel?

As an aside, you're far from alone in your dislike of how certain story elements were handled:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...y-in-Endwalker

The thread is a good...388 pages long but I just wanted to link it so show that you're not isolated in your viewpoints and criticism.

[anhaato]

I actually started liking her and that began to decay quickly. I also felt a bit dismissed when doubt over her intent began to brew among the Scions in ShB as we were primed to believe that this is more a duality rather than Good v Evil, hence why the Light was the villain in that story. Indeed, I have immense qualms over the direction of the story, but realistically all I needed was for some questioning or "Hey, uh. Wasn't it a bit messed up when you did this?"/"Can you please justify why it's okay you did this but not when they do it?" to her. It otherwise felt too saccharine and as if at least my character, which they sometimes try to flavor as having my own will, had, well, no will beyond the desires of the Crystal.

Though I'll mute that part of myself for now. I can pull out an entire 'Charlie' powerpoint on my issues with the lore and Hydaelyn specifically. Ultimately, if I don't like the story, I can simply pass on it and I'm not exactly going out of my way to tell others they're not allowed to enjoy the story. I'm mostly irritated with the more gameplay aspects like Viera/Hrothgar still effectively being limited races or the housing fiasco which is a bit... unacceptable for any development team worth their salt, I feel? And the terribly outdated character creation, but now I'm getting greedy.

No, no, you're right. After we spent last expansion going over why rejoinings are bad, she gets treated as a hero for doing something with the same effects as that; all souls were preserved, but the lives and cultures of the people those souls were part of were reduced to nothing. It was a VERY tone-deaf message, no matter how hard they tried to justify it with ancients were actually le bad or the world was gonna die anyway even though Zodiark was strong enough to protect the star even after being sundered.

[Atelier-Bagur]

=Hurlstone;5905745
Thats fair. Funnily enough, I did feel that I would come to the same conclusion before playing Shadowbringers... although in my case I do think its one of the best FF stories of all time… I will admit I do think Heavensward is a little overrated. I mean I adore it, but its not perfect and has its flaws (Looking at you, resolution to the post-ARR questline…) and again, I feel its a real shame how Stormblood gets put down by fandom when it actually has alot going for it.

Yeah Its a shame, there's a lot of really good story bits with Stormblood that people just gloss over. I appreciate the ambition they were going for with tackling two entire nations and me I feel like in general it did its job with trying to tell its story fine. But it was also very awkwardly done. My biggest complaint is that Gyr Abania and the Far East really should've gotten more zones to compensate but then we run the issue of the pacing being too wonky. Although I see expansion stories as a whole anyway (which means I count the post-patch msq leading to the next expansion) so the extra meat we got with post-Stormblood helped with keeping the entirety of the expansion on the right path.

I also was never much of a character hater, I dont get too attached to a particular character and try not to see the "black" and "white" in the things they do. I understood Lyse and I was genuinely surprised people had real BIG issues with her? All I cared for is seeing character growth and I felt had a good time with our travels with her. Although to be honest; Gosetsu, Hien and Yugiri pretty much stole the whole show for me anyway lol. I absolutely loved those 3 and its a shame its more popular simping on Aymeric (which dont get wrong he's still awesome!) than seeing any actual love for Hien.

[Jin-]

I don't think it's just Square. It's gaming business in general. When something is small it is usually well liked and has loyal fanbase and development mirrors that. Over time when next installments are released and published that care and love is slowly disappearing and main focus moves to mass appeal (remember, quantity cannot co-exist with quality), like here happened during ShB and EW was the final nail. Many of us has seen this so many times over and over. We aren't complaining because we dislike the game, we are complaining because we care and love the game.

[IkaraGreydancer]

No, no, you're right. After we spent last expansion going over why rejoinings are bad, she gets treated as a hero for doing something with the same effects as that; all souls were preserved, but the lives and cultures of the people those souls were part of were reduced to nothing. It was a VERY tone-deaf message, no matter how hard they tried to justify it with ancients were actually le bad or the world was gonna die anyway even though Zodiark was strong enough to protect the star even after being sundered.

Though being fair Zodiark would eventually need everyone to be sacrificed and thus it'd be pointless anyways. I may not like what Hyd did but I can for sure say she at least gave us a chance for life to continue and florish. I never felt the game painted her as perfect oe egotistical. She herself says she knows she caused alot of pain and suffering and she doesn't take joy in that fact. She also doesn't offer pushback if you question her on the boat. Idk...I think they did well with her (and I REALLY did not like her at 1st)

[Atelier-Bagur]

I actually started liking her and that began to decay quickly. I also felt a bit dismissed when doubt over her intent began to brew among the Scions in ShB as we were primed to believe that this is more a duality rather than Good v Evil, hence why the Light was the villain in that story, and then that was all ignored come EW. Indeed, I have immense qualms over the direction of the story, but realistically all I needed was for some questioning or "Hey, uh. Wasn't it a bit messed up when you did this?"/"Can you please justify why it's okay you did this but not when they do it?" to her. It otherwise felt too saccharine and as if at least my character, which they sometimes try to flavor as having my own will, had, well, no will beyond the desires of the Crystal.

Though I'll mute that part of myself for now. I can pull out an entire 'Charlie' powerpoint on my issues with the lore and Hydaelyn specifically. Ultimately, if I don't like the story, I can simply pass on it and I'm not exactly going out of my way to tell others they're not allowed to enjoy the story. I'm mostly irritated with the more gameplay aspects like Viera/Hrothgar still effectively being limited races or the housing fiasco which is a bit... unacceptable for any development team worth their salt, I feel? And the terribly outdated character creation, but now I'm getting greedy.

The Light was never the villain. It was just a mess in the natural order of the elements and a concept taken straight out from og FFIII. Just like how the Ascians majorly screwed up the 13th shard, with tipping the balance to favor shadow which is what caused the entirety of the shard to be destroyed. Even Urianger explained this when we meet up with him in Ill Mheg in ShB. The story was never developing the idea that the Light was actually "evil".