Auto-attack

[Grit]

A lot of us it seems have begun to yearn for some of the excitement of FFXI battle mechanics. But when you look at that auto attack system, it obviously had it's own flaws.

[ChiefCurrahee]

The current battle system is basically the remnants of the alpha battle system, which if i remember correctly didn't have a stamina bar. You had a "power bar" that would fill up. When the bar reached 100% you could make an attack. If you waited past the 100% point you had 3 extra power slots would fill up giving you extra accuracy or extra damage. It was deemed too slow (and it was). During alpha 1 there was extreme lag where attacks took 15-30 seconds from input to animation, but once lag was fixed you attacked once every 4-8 seconds depending on how much you wanted that power bar to fill up.

SE's solution was to axe the power bar and slap on the stamina bar and allow us to use attacks to our hearts content as long as we had stamina... what they failed to do was change anything else in the battle system. We are using mechanics that were meant to be used in a slower system.
Also not to mention we skilled up not necessarily by the rate of how fast we could kill stuff, but on a per skill basis, remember those days? It's a whole package, change 1 thing you have to examine the other.

So now we have to play Dance Dance Revolution on the keyboard or gamepad (especially gamepad).

Like I've said a million times before, introducing an Auto Attack mechanic to your TP building skills would work well with this system. I'm not saying just toss in AA and it's fixed. But instead of scrapping the whole system and starting from scratch which is expensive and time consuming, they instead already have a complete frame work to work with. Adjust damage and TP rates for those TP building attacks so you just can't AA your way through SP mobs. Add Delay times to weapons so H2H have the fastest attack, followed by daggers > swords > wands > arrows > axes then lances slowest attack highest dmg.

The camps of thought are split and I can says it's not 50/50. While those in favor of either system will most likely never see eye to eye. THe safest and least expensive route for SE to take to keep or gain more subs is to change the battle system to something that is more user friendly and that most likely will include an AA mechanic for TP building. Especially if they want to bank on the PS3 release being a 2nd chance for this game.

Read reviews or go play White Knight Chronicles. FFXIV and that game share basically the same battle system (WKC is slower) and console reviews tore it apart for being a tedious system.

[Punxsutawney]

I really do NOT believe having auto-attack fixes anything in FF14. All it allows is for people to go afk while they are fighting Blue dotted enemies. But there is nothing really impressive about have 2 options to build TP either. HMMM... do I used heavy stab or Light stab. WELL, heavy stab doesn't do any more damage than light stab and cost almost double the stamina. HMMM.... I think i'll use light stab.
Essentially, what needs to be done is every class needs more attacks that build TP, or they need directed attacks, attacks such as an attack at the arms to disarm a weapon Weilding enemy for 5-10 seconds, or a skull hit, to addle an enemy and make them forget the words to their spells for 3 seconds, etc. As you can see, these attacks can't be used against every mob, example: a disarm attack would be worthless on a marmot. But they would give you variety on attacks you could use to build TP. So maybe on an imp or something, it would be worth spending 2 times more stamina to do the skull bash, instead of just doing light stab all the time to build up the TP.
But honestly.... I don't support Auto-attack and it shouldn't be implemented, it just for people who want to get a soda while they are in the middle of battle.... ridiculous.

[Kaedan]

Auto attack is basically for people who want to be doing something other than playing the game: watching TV, etc.

Auto attack has been starting to disappear from MMOs. While most still have it, it's useless. Examples:

-Aion - Useless since you're too busy spamming other skills
-Vindictus - 'nuff said
-DCUO - non-existent
-Rift - Useless since you're too busy spamming "combo builders" and then your "finisher".

[Alcide]

So now we have to play Dance Dance Revolution on the keyboard or gamepad (especially gamepad).

I really wander why you keep saying this when I've already showed that it's just you playing the wrong way.

[SydeBeheln]

The current battle system is basically the remnants of the alpha battle system, which if i remember correctly didn't have a stamina bar. You had a "power bar" that would fill up. When the bar reached 100% you could make an attack. If you waited past the 100% point you had 3 extra power slots would fill up giving you extra accuracy or extra damage. It was deemed too slow (and it was). During alpha 1 there was extreme lag where attacks took 15-30 seconds from input to animation, but once lag was fixed you attacked once every 4-8 seconds depending on how much you wanted that power bar to fill up.

SE's solution was to axe the power bar and slap on the stamina bar and allow us to use attacks to our hearts content as long as we had stamina... what they failed to do was change anything else in the battle system. We are using mechanics that were meant to be used in a slower system.
Also not to mention we skilled up not necessarily by the rate of how fast we could kill stuff, but on a per skill basis, remember those days? It's a whole package, change 1 thing you have to examine the other.

So now we have to play Dance Dance Revolution on the keyboard or gamepad (especially gamepad).

Like I've said a million times before, introducing an Auto Attack mechanic to your TP building skills would work well with this system. I'm not saying just toss in AA and it's fixed. But instead of scrapping the whole system and starting from scratch which is expensive and time consuming, they instead already have a complete frame work to work with. Adjust damage and TP rates for those TP building attacks so you just can't AA your way through SP mobs. Add Delay times to weapons so H2H have the fastest attack, followed by daggers > swords > wands > arrows > axes then lances slowest attack highest dmg.

The camps of thought are split and I can says it's not 50/50. While those in favor of either system will most likely never see eye to eye. THe safest and least expensive route for SE to take to keep or gain more subs is to change the battle system to something that is more user friendly and that most likely will include an AA mechanic for TP building. Especially if they want to bank on the PS3 release being a 2nd chance for this game.

Read reviews or go play White Knight Chronicles. FFXIV and that game share basically the same battle system (WKC is slower) and console reviews tore it apart for being a tedious system.

I agree with this.

Maybe the "power bar" feature should be upgraded and put back in the game.
Who knows, I'm sure that feature could go places.

[ChiefCurrahee]

I really wander why you keep saying this when I've already showed that it's just you playing the wrong way.

Tell me again how I'm supposed to select skills again? 1:1 on a keyboard 2+:1 on a gamepad.

Oh i've set up my action bar wrong, so anything thats not in the first/last 3 slots in bars 1 2 and 3 become null and void?
Create macros for the things that are just too far away to reach with a gamepad?

SO how am i playing wrong when clearly you're doing it right?

Look DDR plays like this:
up down left right left right down down up right left down

FFXIV plays like this (keyboard):
1 1 2 3 up 3 2 1 down 2 3 down 1 2 3 up 1 2 3 (changing rows all skills in first 3 slots)
or like this (gamepad):
1 1 right 2 right 3 up 3 left 2 left 1 down right 2 right 3 down left left 1 right 2 right 3 up left left 1 right 2 right 3 (changing rows all skills in first 3 slots)

Am i not supposed to press buttons for attacks? What happens when I run low on TP after i use 2 or 3 skills? press the button for my TP building attacks? No? What am I doing wrong?

How about we ditch the Auto attack idea.

ok?

Now check this out!

Get rid of TP! Following me? Get rid of TP and allow you to use any attack you want at any time. As long as you have the stamina! I'm gonna open spam "Doom Spike II" till my fingers bleed!

The fact is you NEED TP to use other attacks. To build TP you have to use one of your basic attacks (when I say basic I mean the ones used to build TP) Be it light thrust, heavy thrust or full thrust, they basically only exist to build TP, yes they have other uses like bind or AOE attached to them, but they are TP building attacks.

So, please tell me how i'm supposed to play without relying on those type of attacks to use my other skills, and then tell me how i'm not supposed to navigate the action bar to get to those skills?

[Alcide]

Tell me again how I'm supposed to select skills again? 1:1 on a keyboard 2+:1 on a gamepad.

Oh i've set up my action bar wrong, so anything thats not in the first/last 3 slots in bars 1 2 and 3 become null and void?
Create macros for the things that are just too far away to reach with a gamepad?

SO how am i playing wrong when clearly you're doing it right?

Look DDR plays like this:
up down left right left right down down up right left down

FFXIV plays like this (keyboard):
1 1 2 3 up 3 2 1 down 2 3 down 1 2 3 up 1 2 3 (changing rows all skills in first 3 slots)
or like this (gamepad):
1 1 right 2 right 3 up 3 left 2 left 1 down right 2 right 3 down left left 1 right 2 right 3 up left left 1 right 2 right 3 (changing rows all skills in first 3 slots)

Am i not supposed to press buttons for attacks? What happens when I run low on TP after i use 2 or 3 skills? press the button for my TP building attacks? No? What am I doing wrong?

How about we ditch the Auto attack idea.

ok?

Now check this out!

Get rid of TP! Following me? Get rid of TP and allow you to use any attack you want at any time. As long as you have the stamina! I'm gonna open spam "Doom Spike II" till my fingers bleed!

The fact is you NEED TP to use other attacks. To build TP you have to use one of your basic attacks (when I say basic I mean the ones used to build TP) Be it light thrust, heavy thrust or full thrust, they basically only exist to build TP, yes they have other uses like bind or AOE attached to them, but they are TP building attacks.

So, please tell me how i'm supposed to play without relying on those type of attacks to use my other skills, and then tell me how i'm not supposed to navigate the action bar to get to those skills?

Ok, and finally here comes the time when I ask:

"What's your highest rank??"

It seems you don't even know the skills you can get ingame!
Invigorate II: you gain TP doing nothing, it's a regen.
Hawk's Eye + Pierce if you have enough enemies: almost full TP with 1 attack (it can be 1 macro)
Multyshot + Hawk's Eye + Light Shot: Full TP with 1 attack (it can be 1 macro)
Syphon TP: you can drain at least 700 TP

And this is only for the three classes I play, maybe there are even more tactics.
You don't need to get rid of TP to spam WS, I already do it, I use far more WS/abilities then normal attacks, because it takes a few seconds to fill the TP bar and that's why I can't seem to understand why you guys want an auto-attack so badly, what the hell do you need all those normal attacks for??


Now, since you can't remember our last conversation:

My action bar (wich we took as example)

Invigorate II
Full thrust - WS - WS - WS - Keen Flurry - Ferocity II - Hawk's Eye - Speed Surge
Comrade in Arms II
(I put the buffs on the first bar only to check their CD, I always do them in 2 different macros)

What you think is the right pattern:

Invigorate II <down> Full Thrust Full Thrust Full Thrust > WS < Full Thrust > > WS > WS < < < Full Thrust < < Hawk's Eye < Ferocity II < < WS < < Full Thrust > WS.
14 actions, 31 button presses.

How you think it would be with auto-attack (same actions):

Invigorate II <down> (auto attack | auto attack | auto attack) WS (auto attack) > > WS > WS (auto attack) > > > Hawke's eye < Ferocity II < < WS (auto attack) < WS
14 actions, 19 button presses

My pattern:

fisrt buff's macro 2x full thrust; start br with full thrust; second buff's macro > WS > WS < < full thrust START AGAIN

Invigorate and Speed Surge on the first macro, all the other buffs on the second.

11 actions, 12 button presses.

Is it me or you would still move to much even with an auto-attack feature? o.O so maybe the problem is not the game...

And by the way you don't create macro coz a skill is too far away, you do it coz it's stupid to press 3 different buttons (5 with gamepad) when you know you're always gonna use those skills toghether o.O

[ChiefCurrahee]

Ok, and finally here comes the time when I ask:

"What's your highest rank??"

It seems you don't even know the skills you can get ingame!
Invigorate II: you gain TP doing nothing, it's a regen.
Hawk's Eye + Pierce if you have enough enemies: almost full TP with 1 attack (it can be 1 macro)
Multyshot + Hawk's Eye + Light Shot: Full TP with 1 attack (it can be 1 macro)
Syphon TP: you can drain at least 700 TP

And this is only for the three classes I play, maybe there are even more tactics.
You don't need to get rid of TP to spam WS, I already do it, I use far more WS/abilities then normal attacks, because it takes a few seconds to fill the TP bar and that's why I can't seem to understand why you guys want an auto-attack so badly, what the hell do you need all those normal attacks for??


Now, since you can't remember our last conversation:

My action bar (wich we took as example)


What you think is the right pattern:


How you think it would be with auto-attack (same actions):


My pattern:


Is it me or you would still move to much even with an auto-attack feature? o.O so maybe the problem is not the game...

And by the way you don't create macro coz a skill is too far away, you do it coz it's stupid to press 3 different buttons (5 with gamepad) when you know you're always gonna use those skills toghether o.O

Its about time someone came up with a valid reason and example on how the current system can work in one of these many threads.

So what about the other 20 available skill slots? reactive abilities, situational abilites/skills? The system still remains too busy.

[Alcide]

Its about time someone came up with a valid reason and example on how the current system can work in one of these many threads.

So what about the other 20 available skill slots? reactive abilities, situational abilites/skills? The system still remains too busy.

This was my personal pattern that I used when ranking up as lancer, but i often change some skills according to the wituation, but the point was that if you want to avoid moving too much you can do it; my archer pattern is totally different, but still studied to avoid unnecessary movements. Sometimes i might do a few more moves (in exemple I didn't mention when I use Comrade in Arms) but the average pattern is always the same.

About the atcion slots left and all the other skills, honestly I think that the fact that someone can equip almost all of his skills is something that should be addressed too, you never use them all in the same fight and you should spend more time thinking on how to set your build, but that's another problem.