Auto-attack

[Alcide]

the only way to recharge your TP to use those skills is to press a button to attack.
Yes lancer gets and ability that regens TP but that skill isn't interchangeable.
The only way to regen MP during battle is to be main mage and use your MP recover skills, or use your TP skills to return MP from dmg dealt. But then you need to have TP available in the first place to use it!

Having Auto Attack = regening governance pools from other MMOs

so lets break it down.
Wow Type games:
Skills use one of the following to execute skills: Mana Stamina Action
most skills are available from the beginning of a fight.
Mana Stamina Action regens w/o player input
you start with 100% in each pool.

FFXIV
skills can use up to 3 governance pools to execute skills: MP Stamina TP
Only Stamina regens on it's own
you start a fight with 0 TP
You have to attack to gain TP
you need TP to execute other skills.

It's like I said get rid of TP in FFXIV and allow us to use any skill as long as we have sufficient stamina and you have a system where auto attack doesn't matter.
But i think people will be even more upset about that than having an AA implemented for TP gain reasons.

So another option which you all know i support is to automate your TP gaining attacks to take some of the load off the players. The battle system will have to be rebalanced in accordance.

Whats not an option is staying with what we have now, as the dev polls show. the "spamming" of skills is the 2nd biggest issue.

Do you read what i'm writing? o.O you can use Invigorate with any class and it's still effective, plus I listed other ways to get TP that are much quicker (and definitely funnier) then AA.
Getting MP using TP isn't effective (Damnation sucks), but with Syphon MP you never run out of MP.
The Stamina Gauge is full when you start a fight, if you spam skills you run out of stamina, so actually stopping for a few seconds from attacking is giving you an advantage.
How is this system preventing you from chatting in any different way from any other MMO?

And I already proved many times that you don't have to spam in order to be efficient in a party, why are we still arguing about this? I listed all of the abilities I use and showd I never use the normal attack more then 3 times, with different classes. Isn't it enough?

You wanna talk about the poll? what about the fact that everyone that bought the game was able to do it, but only a small percentage of them got past rank 20? And now tell me a single game where at the beginning you don't use always the same attack.

You know what is an option? you guys try out what me and the others agaisnt AA are saying, I really doubt that after that you'll be wanting that feature.

[kukurumei]

Do you read what i'm writing? o.O you can use Invigorate with any class and it's still effective, plus I listed other ways to get TP that are much quicker (and definitely funnier) then AA.
Getting MP using TP isn't effective (Damnation sucks), but with Syphon MP you never run out of MP.
The Stamina Gauge is full when you start a fight, if you spam skills you run out of stamina, so actually stopping for a few seconds from attacking is giving you an advantage.
How is this system preventing you from chatting in any different way from any other MMO?

And I already proved many times that you don't have to spam in order to be efficient in a party, why are we still arguing about this? I listed all of the abilities I use and showd I never use the normal attack more then 3 times, with different classes. Isn't it enough?

Nope, because less lecturing and more realizing that we've all played the game and know it's tricks and ugliness.

Out of stamina? no problem! cast magic aka cure-a-ton that have low stamina, and high animation time, to get it right back up. I do just fine with loops of 3-4 skills. Sure I can fool myself into thinking 10 skills all carefully timed will net me something...It doesn't.

It's just back to spamming the most efficient method of fighting. Trying to lower our intelligence by trying say we haven't played enough leveled enough or other wise make unfounded comments about things ever one on this board has tried and don't like, is fruitless.

Stamina suffers badly from a balance standpoint, and future balance standpoint. And that's why auto attack is a convenient way to fix it.

No matter how you want to make this battle system a novel, and effective way of playing, it isn't. I can go light 5x+ 2 cures and 5x light or whatever skills I've acquired that are "broken combos" and get the same results and even easier results then you trying to play chess with unyielding system.

[Alcide]

Nope, because less lecturing and more realizing that we've all played the game and know it's tricks and ugliness.

Out of stamina? no problem! cast magic aka cure-a-ton that have low stamina, and high animation time, to get it right back up. I do just fine with loops of 3-4 skills. Sure I can fool myself into thinking 10 skills all carefully timed will net me something...It doesn't.

It's just back to spamming the most efficient method of fighting. Trying to lower our intelligence by trying say we haven't played enough leveled enough or other wise make unfounded comments about things ever one on this board has tried and don't like, is fruitless.

Stamina suffers badly from a balance standpoint, and future balance standpoint. And that's why auto attack is a convenient way to fix it.

No matter how you want to make this battle system a novel, and effective way of playing, it isn't. I can go light 5x+ 2 cures and 5x light or whatever skills I've acquired that are "broken combos" and get the same results and even easier results then you trying to play chess with unyielding system.

Then tell me why every high ranked people I asked agree that the game is not spammy at all, not even the mages, actually this is the first MMO where I saw healers doing both heals and nukes at the same time.

And those people are able to achieve great things in game (the NM we've got right now are terribly easy and that's a fact, but there's a big difference in killing them in 7 minutes and risking the rage and that's that those people that can do it enjoy every fight and not just the fact that they killed a NM)

I'm not trying to lower your intelligence, you're already doing it well by not reading and refusing to try out the things we suggested.

It's really funny, people say that those wanting certain things to stay as they are aren't open minded and can't see the things from someone else's point of view, but we gave examples of tactics that clearely works better than spamming and not everyone are aware of them, but still people refuse to try them out and they keep saying the same things ignoring what we write.

[kukurumei]

It's really funny, people say that those wanting certain things to stay as they are aren't open minded and can't see the things from someone else's point of view, but we gave examples of tactics that clearely works better than spamming and not everyone are aware of them, but still people refuse to try them out and they keep saying the same things ignoring what we write.

Yea...funny how people are leaving the game and polls cite battle system as the leading irritation. Clearly works for those that don't fall victim to the "this sucks" disease.

[Delmontyb]

Personally I am in the group of not wanting FFXI's battle system, as I do feel that people who want auto attack use that battle system as an example, for both a pro and a con. I believe that's because for us players who came from XI have fond memories of it, so I can understand why people are so for or against auto attack.

That bit of confusing rambling being said I'll post my hopes and thoughts and I guess we'll know more in the coming weeks of what the new battle system looks like.

1. Being a high ranked player, I find that playing short play sessions I don't mind the battle system at all, and in fact I find it enjoyable. If I end up playing for longer then 30 minutes my view changes and I get tired, and want to do something else. Craft, etc.
2. During fights, I am unable to effectively talk and fight. For those that can, more power to you, but trying to make sure everyone is alive, and also respond to a tell I just received can be difficult. Thus I end up telling my LS and other friends "Going to fight, talk to you after" which makes since, because in a real fight, I wouldn't be chit chatting away with someone on my cell phone, but it does make it hard to be more social in game.
3. I'm all for auto-attack, but my hope is that it's just a very basic attack, or something that can be toggled on or off, really I don't know what they plan to do. I do think a lot of the issues come down to the fact that it's hard to tell what each player's role is in the game, but that's a topic for another discussion.
4. Personally, I would love to see a system that had an auto attack, and also let me queue up attacks on my character that allowed me to setup which skills I wanted to use when I wanted to use them. This is hard to describe in ways, but the idea is that I can press actions and have them show up and be executed in the order that they get queued up, I can then clear my queue if needed, and perhaps other options.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts, I'm hoping to learn more next week as the devs have hinted.

[gifthorse]

Yea...funny how people are leaving the game and polls cite battle system as the leading irritation. Clearly works for those that don't fall victim to the "this sucks" disease.

autoattack doesnt solve the battle system... it just makes it less involving.

[ChiefCurrahee]

As I was playing FFXI today leveling up Pld (lv23 atm) . I thought.... man this is slow. 12 swings of AA to get 100TP so i can use 1TP move. .

This is not the battle system I support. I don't think anyone here wants that form of gameplay.

I switched over to FFXIV played for 30 min (rank 31 Lnc. rank 10-20 most other DoM/DoW) I had to put it down. I got bored/tired of all the inputs I had to issue.

I'm not saying I'm spamming skills.
i'm not going 1111111113334456478837362673845856267848 in 30 seconds.
Fights are short I maybe use 5-10 commands a fight but it stacks up over time.. It's like a DoT on your phalangeal endurance!

Now the difference between FFXI and FFXIV is that in FFXIV you don't need 100% TP to issue a move. So alternate player issued commands are available much sooner and more often. Which gives a faster pace to battle.

When I was driving home from lunch I thought to myself. Why are people so opposed to AA? They feel it's not a needed mechanic. How will it effect their gameplay if there is one? How will they change the way they currently do things?

While I'm sounding like a broken record. *IF* basic TP building attacks become a sort of AA it frees up the need to issue those commands yourself, which frees you up to make other choices. Whether it's replying to a tell, talking tactics mid fight with your PT, Choosing your next TP skill. Waiting on that cool down to stack some buff skills. I'm not saying make it so I can AA every mob in the game and win. But take away the need to manually enter an attack just for the sake of TP.

I think those people who don't want AA will continue to play the way they have been for the last 6 months. It's not a huge game changer for those people who like the 1:1 input:action type game play. It is a huge game changer for those who DO NOT like the 1:1 game play.

You still get to pick and choose what TP skills you do and when, you still get to pick when and what abilities to use. Your rate of TP gain will be effected but as Alcide has pointed out that can be augmented through certain skills. This would also be a good opportunity for devs to differentiate weapon types by adding delays and TP gains, and creating items that enhance TP gain or delay of weapons.

[Alcide]

Yea...funny how people are leaving the game and polls cite battle system as the leading irritation. Clearly works for those that don't fall victim to the "this sucks" disease.

You wanna talk about the poll? what about the fact that everyone that bought the game was able to do it, but only a small percentage of them got past rank 20? And now tell me a single game where at the beginning you don't use always the same attack.

It's really funny, people say that those wanting certain things to stay as they are aren't open minded and can't see the things from someone else's point of view, but we gave examples of tactics that clearely works better than spamming and not everyone are aware of them, but still people refuse to try them out and they keep saying the same things ignoring what we write.

http://www.readinglesson.com/

[ChiefCurrahee]

Alcide, the term spamming doesn't just apply to pressing one button over and over again. I think players feel they are pressing too many buttons during combat. Hence they are spamming buttons.

Thats why in previous posts, people have said pressing 11111 is the same as pressing 55555 or 23456 or 173849.

Your argument of someone who hasn't reached rank 50,40,30 or what ever rank, doesn't understand how the game is supposed to function is ludicrous! Ranks 1-20 fundamentally operate the same as a rank 50, albeit less skills filling your bar. It's not hard to grasp the concept that in order to attack you need to press a button. To use most skills you need TP, to get TP you need to press a button before you press another button, so you can press another button.

How are we who want auto attack not being open minded? We've spent 6 months playing this game in it's current state, We are saying "hey lets try this." It's the people who are saying what we have now if fine who are closed minded. Have you thought about how a console player is going to receive this game? Have you read my thread about changing the UI to make the game more assessable to a gamepad user w/o implementing an AA?

[Linnear]

I think Betel and Alcid are missing some key points in their arguements, lets see if I can try to consolidate some of this issues.

For starters, Betel if you want to say that the game is not invovled enough you are obviouisly not playing glad with a control pad, I sugest trying this level 30+ before you make any more posts about it not being an issue. If you want a game that requires a voice chat and button mashing, then you need to stick with PC only games. Controllers require a diferent system it is that simple. 1-1-4-7-1-1, in a 20 second window will never work well for controllers in a social game, (works great for solo play but if you want that then go play a solo game), If SE created a radical or centralized UI system like someone was talking about earlier with a 3x3 box where after each command the cursur moved back to the center it would be less of an issue.

I don't think that auto attack is the ONLY method of fixing the cross plateform problem but I do think it is one of the better ones, the radical or the 3x3 does not necessarly fix the communication problems you get by entering 20+ commands a min. It is this 20+ commands that is the issue for communicating with a controler, if you want XI to strictly be a mouse and keyboard game then that is too bad for you because SE is making it cross plateform regardless of what you want or think, this means that either a new UI needs to be designed for them or the system needs to change. Working on business as usual ( BAU) is the worst philosophy you can possibly have for a system, it guarentees no advancement, improvements and eventuall stagnation. If you have something usefull to say please say it but please don't say that BAU works fine, it is tool of a simple mind unable to think of something outsisde it's experiences.

Alcide this wil be shorter, if you want to fix your problems with archer just make the abilities work on all moves other than auto attack, congradulations your problem is fixed with or without toggle...... Common guys seriously think about how someone else solution can work, we shouldn't have to be explaining things like this for an MMO, expecially if you want to claim that you want more skill in games......

Auto attack would not get rid of TP generation, it would simply augment it, if you introduce auto attack you can normalize TP generation across other moves to balance it all out so that TP generation per unit time is roughly the same as it is now. (if anyone needs this explained, go read the definition of normalization before hand and if you still not sure how this can work I will explain it.) Surely your smart enough to see how this can work and I am sure the thought crossed your mind, but didn't want to give an advantage to others that argue vs your opinion.

Auto attack if implemented properly will NOT dumb down the game like so many of you are afraid of, it will just result in fewer inputs for the same effect. Personally I am an advocate for more complicated and involved gameplay, but preventing auto attack is NOT the way to do it, if anything it can increase the level of complexity by allowing more non/tp generating moves, (stuns, moving around, avoiding damage, interupts, defence abilities, etc) if that is what you really want.

Once again for thoes who didn't understand it the first time, if you want more than 20+ actions a min, then you can't have a game on controler with the current UI and expect them to communicat with anyone. If you want everyone to use a keyboard or mouse, stick to PC only games, If you want SE to put in a Voice chat be that is your business, it might fix some of these problems but doesn't get ride of the "It sucks to hit 50 buttons for 20 actions on a controller".