Auto-attack

[gifthorse]

You guys are looking at this all wrong. Yoshi already said they are reworking the whole combat system. So instead of saying the current system is crap and so we should automate it, how about you think about an ideal combat system instead, and then discuss that?

What would be your perfect combat system?

[Betelgeuzah]

For starters, Betel if you want to say that the game is not invovled enough you are obviouisly not playing glad with a control pad, I sugest trying this level 30+ before you make any more posts about it not being an issue.

Hmm, I'm sorry if I haven't been clear enough with my arguments. Let me clarify:

I am not touching on the topic of how involving the game currently is. That is irrelevant for my argument. What I am saying is that regardless of how much involvement the game has currently, or how broken the current combat system is, a preferred solution should be one where the involvement does not suffer because of it. An even better solution should be one that is most efficiently implementable and complements the existing mechanics, so that as little resources and time can be used to make the combat system good.

If you want a game that requires a voice chat and button mashing, then you need to stick with PC only games.

I would say that console games can be just as if not even more involving than PC games. Obviously they work in a different way due to lack of buttons. Examples of this are Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, Street Fighter, etc.

These games... can be considered "button mashing", but that will only get you killed. I hope that you don't consider high involvement a bad thing, because these games really are good and benefit from the gameplay. Hell, even XIII would be like this if it wasn't for the "auto-battle" mechanics.

If SE created a radical or centralized UI system like someone was talking about earlier with a 3x3 box where after each command the cursur moved back to the center it would be less of an issue.

I have mentioned this before on the forums. The over-all gameplay favors PC rather than console, but it's not an issue that can not be overcome. I think that regardless of what S-E ends up doing with [auto-attack], this change would help gameplay with a pad immensely.

I don't think that auto attack is the ONLY method of fixing the cross plateform problem but I do think it is one of the better ones, the radical or the 3x3 does not necessarly fix the communication problems you get by entering 20+ commands a min.

Actually, a better solution already exists and is being favored over in the Japanese forums- that is, the "stacking battle commands" feature from FFXIII. Of course this requires a lot of work to get right, but the benefits are on-par with the normal auto-attack (aside from the decreased lag, but in my honest opinion this is an issue that should be dealt in a better manner, like actually improving the server code and hardware) and the downsides don't really exist, as involvement remains pretty much unchanged.

Lastly, console gamers use voice-chat just as much if not more than the PC users. Especially on Xbox 360. Voice-chat is not "a PC thing".

[Linnear]

Betel did you even read my post? or do you enjoy quoting things without reading the rest of the content? The current combat system for controler inputs works fine for solo games, but for an MMO it doens't work. You actually gave a really good arguement for our casue, you want to used street fighter as an examples, lets take a look at that. In street fighter you have 6 moves, and a direrctional pad, in FFXIV you have 30 ish skills, and moving and communication, you want to explain how you think that this makes sence?

With an auto attack you get a chance to bring the number of required actions on some classes like Glad, Lnc or Mar, down form the 20 ish a min down to 12-15, For controllers this is more managable, and possibly, more fun(depending on player preferences). Now what thoes 12-15 commands are, for the sake of this arguemnt is irrevelant because it is less than 20 and therefore gives more time for other aspects of the game. If this were a PC only title this would not be an issues beucase Voice and keyboard and mouse would be more accessable. One of the reasons I like FFXIV initially is becasue I like my leather recliner and my 55 inc T.V and I want to play an MMO on that set up with a controller like I did on FFXI. The people who port over from XI or who join XIV for the first time will also want this. AA makes it easier to get it, not the only method but it does make it easier.

Also, queuing up commands does very little for freeing up the number of commands you need to input in a given time because you still need to input the systems. What it does do is allow you put them in bigger chunks to try to free up some desperate time in the middle for typing or w/e but you know what I don't care, because it still won't be FUN!!!! It will be passibly operable, but I won't play it, and suspect that other controller users wont' want to paly that either, why becuase it is freaking spammy, and a pain in the ass.

You still havne't given an arguement as to why it is a good idea not to have an AA. Only thing I see people saying is what you are trying to avoid, never what is so good about it. I agree with chief that we don't want to wait 20 seconds in between actions like you do at lower levels in XI, but I also want my actions to be meaningfull, and fun, and be able to communicate with others.

Also you want ot know why everyone who is currently high level likes the current system? it is becuase everyone who hates the current system, (myself and others in this thread, and other threads) either refuses to play this game as it is or can't bring ourselves to play this game long enough to get there. Therefore your concentration of playing who like the current system at high levels will inevitably be higher. That doesn't mean that our opinoins mean less, if anything to SE it should mean more becuase we are probaly more numersome, and who will never pay for the game unless they fix it.

Auto attack allows for weapon speed to come back into play,(other ways to do this as well)
Auto attack, lowers the number of commands required for input for some classes, (other ways to this as well)
Auto attack, allows for attacks to feel more meaningfull (other ways to this as well)
Auto attack, allows for timeing to enter into effect as you might want to wait an extra second before you next ability to maximize damage, thereby increasing the intuitive aspect of DDing, (other ways to do this as well)
Status weapons can get more use with AA as you are attacking mobs more frequently, without more actions being entered, (other ways to do this as well)

I am not saying that AA will solve all problems or that it is the only solution to many of them, but I havne't seen another idea out there that will have what I think as a posative impact on so many aspects of the game without any serious complaints agains't it other then you feel it will slow the game down to much or will make it so peopel can go AFK. (can't really aruge slowing the game down but for controllers that is a desired effect for an MMO). IF you don't want people auto attacking and going afk tha tis simple, there is this kick party member command that you might want to look at I hear it is this new invention where you can NOT play with baddies.

[Betelgeuzah]

In street fighter you have 6 moves, and a direrctional pad, in FFXIV you have 30 ish skills, and moving and communication, you want to explain how you think that this makes sence?

The number of required actions stays the same. Even if you use only 6 buttons in Street Fighter, combining those 6 button inputs creates more actions. Those actions can be further comboed into even more actions at once. To take this even further, combining and comboing requires strict timing.

It all comes down to the same thing. Just because the way the skills are used is different (separate button for each action vs. combining buttons for more actions) the required number of button presses is the same. Do you think that 20 button presses a minute is the norm for Street Fighter? Or Bayonetta?

Because this game is designed for each action to have a separate button, it gets more tricky to fit the gameplay to a gamepad form, but don't act like this is something nobody has solved before. Various companies in the past have fit the PC-tailored controls for the gamepad efficiently, without taking away any of the involvement in the process. 3x3 grid is the most commonly used method, or something similar- even to the point that you can tilt the analog pad to scroll the abilities you have at your disposal. Basic attack doesn't even have to be in the grid, but can have a key assigned to it for both gamepad and for example the mouse. Making these actions require button combinations would be the best solution (for gamepads, not keyboard+mouse users), but certainly not the only one.

If this were a PC only title this would not be an issues beucase Voice and keyboard and mouse would be more accessable.

Voice is just as accessible, and that enables you to play from the couch with just your gamepad as well. It wasn't a good argument, it isn't a good argument, and it won't be a good argument.

What it does do is allow you put them in bigger chunks

Yes, exactly. During a battle you shouldn't have time to leisurely chitchat with your Linkshell about the weekend, but you should be able to input fast battle commands if needed. This is perfectly fine and does not reduce involvement.

you know what I don't care, because it still won't be FUN!!!!

I don't care about your subjective opinion. If you have nothing to back it up with it is meaningless for this argument. We are not comparing color green to color orange.

I also want my actions to be meaningfull, and fun, and be able to communicate with others.

I'd go as far as to say that your basic attacks deal most of the damage in any encounter. Sounds pretty meaningful to me. Fun is subjective and as such does not have a place in an objective argument. Communication is handled by voice chat- if you're too stubborn to use it, it is no longer the fault of the developer or anyone else. It is your personal problem and you have to deal with it.

God, your reasons just suck. Why am I even replying. 1 can be done right now, 2 is a negative, 3 doesn't make any sense, 4 can be done right now (even better in -fact, because you have more control over your attacks), 5 what.. just... ugh.

(can't really aruge slowing the game down but for controllers that is a desired effect for an MMO).

It is never a desired effect for any game. If the current layout does not support gamepad, you change the layout, not slow the game down for gamepad users to keep up. That is completely backwards.

[ChiefCurrahee]

You guys are looking at this all wrong. Yoshi already said they are reworking the whole combat system. So instead of saying the current system is crap and so we should automate it, how about you think about an ideal combat system instead, and then discuss that?

What would be your perfect combat system?

Um this thread is about how to improve the battle system through the implementation of Auto attack. Not the Automation of the battle system. I haven't seen one post that says "let the game play for me"
Having TP generating attacks, attack in set intervals does not equal automation of the battle system. As you still need player issued commands for TPskills/abilities/Spells

People who are in favor of a FFXIII style battle system, are basically in favor of a nearly full automated battle system. Which is not strategic or engaging at all. (the strategy in FFXIII was to adapt to the changes of the battle system. Not issuing battle commands.)

I'll ask this again.

How will auto attack effect your over all gameplay currently? How will it change the way you play?

[Betelgeuzah]

Having TP generating attacks, attack in set intervals does not equal automation of the battle system. As you still need player issued commands for TPskills/abilities/Spells

Extremes for the win.

Either the battle "isn't automated at all", or "it will be completely automated".

How about actually grasping that with Auto-Attack, the battle will be "more automated than before" (which, again, does not equal "completely automated" and nobody has even claimed this) and that is unacceptable when better alternatives exist.

-Communication: Voice Chat, Stacking battle commands.
-Involvement: Stacking battle commands does not automate the combat, only concentrates it
-Server lag: Better server code, better server hardware.
-Homogenized use of skills: Make the encounters harder, situationalize the skills further.
-The UI does not take gamepads into account: Make the UI more suitable for gamepads
-PC MMO players: Do not consider this game inferior because the gameplay has been toned down for the sake of console players that have to deal with an inproper User Interface as well as unoptimized servers.

[Linnear]

but don't act like this is something nobody has solved before.

Various companies in the past have fit the PC-tailored controls for the gamepad efficiently, without taking away any of the involvement in the process. 3x3 grid is the most commonly used method, or something similar- even to the point that you can tilt the analog pad to scroll the abilities you have at your disposal. Basic attack doesn't even have to be in the grid, but can have a key assigned to it for both gamepad and for example the mouse. Making these actions require button combinations would be the best solution (for gamepads, not keyboard+mouse users), but certainly not the only one.

Yes thank you you just reposted what was already said before about other solutions, we know this already, this is not the first post on the subject. Most of which I have already posted congradulating the ideas, Once again I already acknowledged that there are other ways to get around this in some respect, so once again your inability to follow continuity and context is shown becasue I never acted like this hasn't been partially solved elsewhere.

Voice is just as accessible, and that enables you to play from the couch with just your gamepad as well. It wasn't a good argument, it isn't a good argument, and it won't be a good argument. .

Can you please try to stick to an acrual arguement opposed to your own beliefe of what is good and not good. Do you have a reason for saying so? is there a logic to these statements or do you expect us all to take you on your word as an authority on good and bad ideas?


If you want to use VOIP on PS3 for FFXIV they need to put the ability in, as it is currently not in the game ther eis nothing that players can do about it. You want me to have my laptop (or desktop) in the living room so I can use a PC VOI just because you dont' want an AA, yea that is solid reason right there.... Also I said previously that VOIP is a personal choice and will fix some of the problems for controlers, not all of them.

I don't care about your subjective opinion. If you have nothing to back it up with it is meaningless for this argument. We are not comparing color green to color orange. .

Do you enjoy quotiing out of context or do you seriously not know how to do it? do you work for CNN?
anyway there was meaning in that comment you chose to leave it out.

"Also, queuing up commands does very little for freeing up the number of commands you need to input in a given time because you still need to input the systems. What it does do is allow you put them in bigger chunks to try to free up some desperate time in the middle for typing or w/e but you know what I don't care, because it still won't be FUN!!!!"

There is meaning here, it is the queue doesn't fix the problem of to many entries for control pads, the fact I don't think it is fun IS subjective, so your not entirely wrong, but it I was comparing apple to apples.

Do you see the difference there? I started with something quantatative by saying it does very little to reduce the volume of commands, I then explained the mechanics behind why it doesn't reduse the volume of command, then I gave my opinion of that by saying it wastn' fun.

very relivent but your misquoting removed the content, nothing new there....

(I'd go as far as to say that your basic attacks deal most of the damage in any encounter.

This seems pretty easy to quantify, but hey look you didn't even try. Even if it this statement were true, AA would mean you can perform onto what I consider more interesting moves.

Fun is subjective and as such does not have a place in an objective argument. .

Yes this is subjective, and preference, but I am allowed to say it even in an objective arguement because I am not using it as proof of a fact and I am claiming it is my opinion and not fact, just like my previous comment about preforming more interesting moves. Your view that it has no place in an objective arguemnt IS however a misuse of subjective language in an objectice arguement, thanks for providing an example to the contrary. It is wrong becasue you are claiming an opinion as a fact without explaining that it is an opinion, thanks for showing an example of the difference it is much appreciated.

Communication is handled by voice chat- if you're too stubborn to use it, it is no longer the fault of the developer or anyone else. It is your personal problem and you have to deal with it. .

If the developer wants people to use it, and is designing around it, they need to provide it. Blizzard figured this out and implemented VOIP in SC2 and WoW. Heroes of New Earth as well, if your game is complex enough to require VOIP or you want it for a social aspect then I think VOIP should be included.

God, your reasons just suck. Why am I even replying. 1 can be done right now, 2 is a negative, 3 doesn't make any sense, 4 can be done right now (even better in -fact, because you have more control over your attacks), 5 what.. just... ugh.

1 you didn't respond to the problem just mis quoted
2 requires servies that currently do no exist and SE has made no indication they want to put into the game
3 if three doesnt' make sence you need to reread it
4 If this can be done now, SE woudn't be looking at it
5 your point is valid and is a difference in opinion, I said I don't want 20 actions a min and you do, that is opinion, you are allowed to think what you will.

What you shoudl stay away form is saying this

[QUOTE=Betelgeuzah;56812]


It is never a desired effect for any game.[QUOTE]

This is your opinion and should be adressed as such. Common this is grade school stuff you should know this by now. Your allowed to say you don't like something but dismissing aspects haphazardly is not an effectice way to communicate or argue a point.

[Linnear]

Extremes for the win.

Either the battle "isn't automated at all", or "it will be completely automated".

How about actually grasping that with Auto-Attack, the battle will be "more automated than before" (which, again, does not equal "completely automated" and nobody has even claimed this) and that is unacceptable when better alternatives exist.

-Communication: Voice Chat, Stacking battle commands.
-Involvement: Stacking battle commands does not automate the combat, only concentrates it
-Server lag: Better server code, better server hardware.
-Homogenized use of skills: Make the encounters harder, situationalize the skills further.
-The UI does not take gamepads into account: Make the UI more suitable for gamepads
-PC MMO players: Do not consider this game inferior because the gameplay has been toned down for the sake of console players that have to deal with an inproper User Interface as well as unoptimized servers.

I have no problem lwith anythign in this post but it still does NOT exclude AA btw you keep missing that point. and still have not said whyyou don't want one.

[Linnear]

You guys are looking at this all wrong. Yoshi already said they are reworking the whole combat system. So instead of saying the current system is crap and so we should automate it, how about you think about an ideal combat system instead, and then discuss that?

What would be your perfect combat system?

Gift I think your right and we shoudl be discussing what could be better and why. The problem is the people who are agains't AA arn't putting their arguements into the pile and quantifying them. AA or no AA is one of the fundamental things about a combat system I think, it decised what your gear will look like, what types of builds will be available, the class diferentiation, the speed and flow of combat. Therefore we need reasonf for each system, yes there should be arguemtns and counter arguement, but right now it is AA advocates putting forth ideas and the stalwarts of no AA trying to shoot them down oppsoed to justifying their choice. It is like the politician that keeps trying to shoot the other plateforms down oppsoed to having one themselves. Can we get a pros and cons of each and then start trying to pick holes at the tohers arguements please?

[Betelgeuzah]

Once again I already acknowledged that there are other ways to get around this in some respect

Then why are you still arguing with me? Better ways are available, that's what SE should do to fix the game, not this. Prove me wrong or agree, but don't ignore them.

Do you have a reason for saying so?

-Your hands are free to play the game simultaneously
-Most people speak faster than they type
-Speech lets us express ourselves better than just text.
-You are not limited to having the keyboard with you when you talk.
-You aren't forced to look at the chat box to hear what people are saying.

Yes, I kind of expected these things to be clear to everyone. It's not like I am revealing some huge secret here (maybe?).

If you want to use VOIP on PS3 for FFXIV they need to put the ability in

And if you want to talk using text they need to put the AA ability in. Your solution is not any better, both need work but mine makes more sense because of what was said above.

it is the queue doesn't fix the problem of to many entries for control pads

That's not the problem, and even if it is, you haven't presented any reason why that would be. "Too many button inputs" creates the problem of "not being able to chat efficiently", my solution fixes the problem while not making any modifications to something that doesn't need any modifications (button inputs). If you said that the problem is that we are left to perform only few of the several actions available it would be different, but that problem has to do with the lack of encounter difficulty that doesn't require you to use the full list of your equipped abilities efficiently, and again, has nothing to do with the button inputs.

anyway there was meaning in that comment you chose to leave it out.

Yes, I don't like repeating myself nor replying to arguments with imaginary problems. Too bad it seems I need to do both to get my point across.

This seems pretty easy to quantify, but hey look you didn't even try.

It's not really relevant- whether its "most damage" or "a lot of damage" doesn't matter, the fact that it makes a large difference is enough. If you disagree, I'd want to know why. If you don't (which I assume is the case), then don't reply back. I won't quantify things that are apparent as-is.

I am allowed to say it even in an objective arguement

Go ahead dude.

It is wrong becasue you are claiming an opinion as a fact without explaining that it is an opinion

Only as long as the info is out there already. I don't like repeating myself (oops). You did point out an exception to the rule though.

It is never a desired effect for any game.

It is a desired effect for a game which is too involving (which this game is not), and if it can be avoided it should be avoided. Sometimes that is not possible, in this game's case fortunately it can be avoided and as such it should be. It's irrelevant to the argument, but thank you for pointing it out.

Common this is grade school stuff you should know this by now.

Did you just say common as a "come on"? Stick to the argument at hand, please.

and still have not said whyyou don't want one.

-Communication: Voice Chat, Stacking battle commands. << better solutions presented here exist, which is why I don't want AA.
-Involvement: Stacking battle commands does not automate the combat, only concentrates it << AA automates the combat to achieve the same end result, which is undesirable because the game is not too involving.
-Server lag: Better server code, better server hardware. << Server lag should not be used as an excuse to automate the combat, as the problem can be dealt in better ways presented here.
-Homogenized use of skills: Make the encounters harder, situationalize the skills further. << AA won't fix this, thus it would be a waste of resources to implement for this reason.
-The UI does not take gamepads into account: Make the UI more suitable for gamepads << AA would excuse them to not make the UI more suitable for gamepads, and acts as going around the problem by sacrificing involvement in the process.
-PC MMO players: Do not consider this game inferior because the gameplay has been toned down for the sake of console players that have to deal with an inproper User Interface as well as unoptimized servers. << This is what would happen when you reduce the amount of button presses in relation to other MMO's while keeping the gameplay the same as in those MMO's for the most part.