Samurai has MORE 'action bloat' after removing kaiten, and feels clunky

[GoAgane]

During burst, a 6.0 Samurai could spend kenki very fast by simply doing kaiten+shinten->midare, spending half of the gauge in a single gcd. Now, spending a full gauge+extra that SAM generates during burst, is clunky and spread out with 1 shinten at a time each gcd. In terms of 'apm', absolutely nothing has changed because we still spend kenki for ogcd's, except before SAM could burst really fast while keeping the minimum kenki required for future kaitens, while now we need to spam 1 shinten each gcd for like 10+ seconds, it feels bloated and clunky.

Just providing an additional perspective for why we need kaiten back, since everything else has been said before by others. It was a cool animation, created kenki management as a meaningful job mechanic, pleasant sound effect, core part of samurai's identity combo (kaiten->midare), was responsive and fun to use.

I wanted to play Samurai in the new ultimate but it feels strictly worse now. Please bring kaiten back, or give us an alternative kenki spender other than shinten.

[SeverianLyonesse]

During burst, a 6.0 Samurai could spend kenki very fast by simply doing kaiten+shinten->midare, spending half of the gauge in a single gcd. Now, spending a full gauge+extra that SAM generates during burst, is clunky and spread out with 1 shinten at a time each gcd. In terms of 'apm', absolutely nothing has changed because we still spend kenki for ogcd's, except before SAM could burst really fast while keeping the minimum kenki required for future kaitens, while now we need to spam 1 shinten each gcd for like 10+ seconds, it feels bloated and clunky.

Just providing an additional perspective for why we need kaiten back, since everything else has been said before by others. It was a cool animation, created kenki management as a meaningful job mechanic, pleasant sound effect, core part of samurai's identity combo (kaiten->midare), was responsive and fun to use.

I wanted to play Samurai in the new ultimate but it feels strictly worse now. Please bring kaiten back, or give us an alternative kenki spender other than shinten.

It's APM bloat instead of hotbar bloat but I will stand beside you anyway because you are absolutely correct.

[GoAgane]

Yea that's what I figured Square meant in the live letter - reducing how busy SAM is during burst(I think it was completely fine before), or in other words, reducing actions per minute. Obviously to reduce 'hotbar bloat' they could merge shoha+shoha II, ikishoten+ogi, gyuten+shinten, or senei+guren. What I'm trying to illustrate is that even if the goal was to reduce how busy SAM is, removing kaiten actually accomplished the opposite because it is now harder to spend kenki in the burst window(your max output is 25 per gcd as opposed to 45 per gcd).

[YukiB]

It's not very often you wanted to double weave Kaiten and Shinten to spend 45 kenki in one GCD. At most twice per burst window if you pooled kenki, and only if you're confident you won't clip the GCD.

It is true though that the opener isn't any less busy. We generate 135 kenki in the opener, which we used to spend on 1x Senei, 4x Kaiten, and 1x Shinten for 130 total spent. Now, we use 1x Senei, 4x Shinten, and 1x Gyoten (yes, Gyoten lol) for 135 total spent. We only spend an extra 5 kenki across the same number of oGCDs. So the removal of Kaiten was an abject failure even according to the questionable goal the developers laid out.

[CelestiCer]

To me the " Bloat " issue? is the fun satisfying part and not even an issue. But, the devs see it as hurdle? to improve SAM gameplay due it being restrictive? so... if I imagine myself in the Dev's shoes on what I would be forced to do?

( *NOTE: Theorycrafting, not what I want * )
=========================
- Meikyo Shisui
Max charges reduced to 1
Potency adjusted to match 2 charge opener
Cooldown reduced from 55sec to 30sec

- Tsubame-Gaeshi
Max charges reduced to 1
Potency adjusted to match 2 charge opener
Cooldown reduced from 60sec to 35sec
=========================

DPS has been spread out instead of frontloaded on opener. Kaiten removal just solves the issue ( in their minds or what their being told to do ) to relief bloat? for Future changes?

But not what a lot of SAM's want and it's leaving a void open for the Future changes as in... we can't see what this change is supposed to solve cause it's not being presented.

For Shoha 3?
For Ogi Namikiri 2?
For Enhanced Midare?
For Senei 2?

What is it for? we don't know we are left guessing with no Kaiten rotation at the moment. And I can't think of a good reason on why they would solve a problem that doesn't at the moment really exist for us players. So I keep thinking it's a probelm on their end, to make FFXIV accessible on more casual platforms then Console and PC. Say raiding on an IPad with a Pen or idk playing FFXIV on a mobile phone who knows I have no idea... I am fishing for a reason and I can't think of a reasonable one.


EDIT: Just tried testing the imaginary opener I made with the adjusted skills above...
Meikyo / True North / Gekko / Ikishoten / Higanbana / Senei / Kasha / Gekko / Shinten / Hakaze / Yukikaze / Midare Setsugekka / Kaeishi: Setsugekka / Shoha / Ogi Namikiri / Kaeshi: Namikiri / Shinten ...just kill me ...just kill me right now

[DarthManwe]

Long time lurker, first time caller.

Created a forum profile just to offer feedback on SAM. As I am a dedicated SAM main, playing this class since I came back to the game in 5.0.
To offer perspective. I played a Jedi Guardian DPS Spec in SWTOR. Played Ret Paladin in WoW. Played a Warrior in LotrO.
I play almost exclusively single sword wielding DPS classes in MMOs. I specialize. And almost all of these niche bearers use cast times for big hits. Blade Barrage of Vigilance Jedi Guardian is almost identical to Midare Setsugekka.

And even SWTOR devs, in all the years of their missteps, never once made Blade Barrage a middle of the road ability. It always stayed the most powerful.

Samurai is even worse. A jedi guardian in lore is not defined by their ability to demolish with a single strike. SAmurais in both FF lore and historical accuracy DO. Iaijutsu is their thing, their identifying trait.

That's what makes them Samurai in combat.

My Gekko is doing more DPS on a direct hit crit than a Kaeshi Setsugekka.

What.

The.

Hell.

This class' 6.08 iteration, hands down, may be the best melee DPS experience I've tasted in my 20 (!!!) years of MMO playing. With a single patch, you decimated it to one of the worst.

That in itself is a massive achievement. This is WoW levels of mismanagement of a class. It is mind bogglingly bad.

Kaiten IS the thing that identified this niche. It was the biggest flex move in the game. And the thing that made kenki management interesting. Required to use IS NOT A BAD THING. It was the thing that separated boys from men.

Action bloat is your concern?

Why is Shoha 1 and 2 separate. Why does Ikishoten DO NOT turn into Ogi Namikiri?? Why does Tenka Goken does less damage than a goddamn kenki spender?


Yoshi-p and co. I love you guys.

But you gotta unfuck this up.

Revert this right now. In a hotfix if necessary. If you wait till 6.2, this class will be dead.

I was kicked out of no less than 3 Endsinger EX grps with DNCs in them because I was deemed to be a bad dance partner, and they had no other melees.

Our base DPS is nerfed. I can barely reach my 6.08 numbers in a 3 min rotation with 8 minutes on dummy now.

Look, you ALREADY sold Endwalker. It's done. It's over. You don't need to do the Destiny 2 Beyond Light thing and buff the expansion tied jobs any more. Everyone already bought it, you dont need to feed Reapers any more!!

Thank you,

Sincerely,

An extremely disgruntled MMO veteran and SAM main.