(6.X Spoilers/Theory) Future WOL Content - Everything’s Coming Up…

[Cleretic]

Eden raid pretty much implied that gender doesn't matter: Mitron was apparently female in the Ancient World, and only got a male body in its future lives.
Plus, as I have said, Azem has knowledge of the future, which is odd.
Before discovering this, I was also on the board of "Azem's gender is just there to show a connection".
I don't think so anymore.
They clearly have a plan for Azem going forward.
But only time will tell what the plan is.

It's not a matter of 'plausible', it's a matter of the actual connection to oneself, which is kinda the whole point of Azem. Especially during Shadowbringers and its patches, remember that nobody was saying we actually were anything like Azem in any way beyond spirit and vagueries; it was only come Endwalker that people actually started drawing more explicit connections.

You play a male character. Can you honestly say that, if Azem was only ever referred to by female pronouns, that you ever would've thought that the game was saying she was you? Especially given that the Eden evidence you give wasn't just subtext based on the name (Endwalker never uses a pronoun for Mitron, FYI), but also came a patch after all of the Azem talk?

[Garnix]

Mitron is referred to with female pronouns in French and Japanese, and it was confirmed that it was not a localization mistake and very intentional.
In 5.3, they pretty much say that "ours is the seat of Azem". Don't need a gender for this.
At the end of 5.0 when we rejoin with Ardbert, Emet sees Azem, which implies it as well.
If the gender was not relevant for the plot, they could just have kept it "gender neutral" and it would be just as obvious (call them Azem, call them the traveller, call them the 14th, call them 'our friend' etc. all of those namings would be gender neutral and would work just as well).
I think the fact that they went one step ahead to give Azem a gender means its important.

As I said, there are just multiple elements adding up to each other over time to lead me to the expectation that the connection with Azem is more than just "we are one of their shards".

[Cleretic]

Mitron is referred to with female pronouns in French and Japanese, and it was confirmed that it was not a localization mistake and very intentional.
In 5.3, they pretty much say that "ours is the seat of Azem". Don't need a gender for this.
At the end of 5.0 when we rejoin with Ardbert, Emet sees Azem, which implies it as well.
If the gender was not relevant for the plot, they could just have kept it "gender neutral" and it would be just as obvious (call them Azem, call them the traveller, call them the 14th, call them 'our friend' etc. all of those namings would be gender neutral and would work just as well).
I think the fact that they went one step ahead to give Azem a gender means its important.

As I said, there are just multiple elements adding up to each other over time to lead me to the expectation that the connection with Azem is more than just "we are one of their shards".

Mitron being referred to by female pronouns wouldn't have held any value at the time either, because we hadn't seen Mitron in full, therefore there weren't yet any apparent contradictions. That wouldn't have told us apparent gender-fluidity among the Ascians, all it would've said is that female Ascians existed--which we already knew thanks to Igeyorhm and Emmerololth.

You're right that their gender isn't relevant to the plot, but it is important to basic dialog construction, especially in more gendered languages. In fact, this exact topic is a great example of that; if you play with the language tags on the short story about Azem fighting a volcano, Japanese and English don't have a 'player's gender' option, because the entire story could be written without using a pronoun--but the option exists for French and German, because the exact same story requires Azem's gender in those languages. They already had the ability to alter the script by gender for the WoL themselves, so why would they weirdly write around applying a gender to Azem when they could just use that, because they're us anyway?

I get that you want them to build up to making Azem a Big Deal, but nothing you're citing as evidence is the smoking gun you think it is, and is more likely just 'the most natural and easiest way they would've written Azem regardless of why they were including them'.

EDIT: And as an unrelated thing, Japanese is a weird case with gendered pronouns in that they're basically all gender-implying by context rather than an outright statement of gender like in English. This is actually why when Mitron's gender came up through Cylva it was first raised by the playerbase as a potential mistake with the French version, rather than anything more; because the pronoun the Japanese script used (probably 'watashi' by my guess) wouldn't have stood out as exceptionally feminine in the context it was used.

[Shookbeast]

Those tag options are pretty neat. That’s a cool feature. The fact that the writers are so attentive to this could give weight to either side of this debate. We’ll have to just wait and see - and speculate in the meantime (:

[Denishia]

Honestly, the single story decision that would turn me off this game and make me no longer care about the MSQ would be our WoL devouring all the other Azem soul shards and combining into an Unsundered being (there is something deeply personally repulsive to me about that power fantasy) and especially a closed time-loop where we 'become' the Azem that was friends with two characters I do not like - Emet and Hythlodaeus- and have zero desire to have a single addition quest involving them. And the time loop aspects of EW are already the most controversial element - and such an ending for my WoL where they become trapped in the Ancient PreSundered society is a bad ending regardless of anything related to the Final Days.

Would I mind the MSQ eventually having us interact with another person who also carries a shard of Azem? Not at all. But I don't want to have their soul in our by the end of that plotline either - frankly I hope that there's a way that when we die the piece of Ardbert is separated from us to rejoin his friends on the First.

With our JRPG mandate of fighting all the gods - let's be honest, the only time I want to see Azem in-game is as a trial boss where we as the WoL and all the other bearers of their shard across the Shards defeat them in combat.

[Shookbeast]

Honestly, the single story decision that would turn me off this game and make me no longer care about the MSQ would be our WoL devouring all the other Azem soul shards and combining into an Unsundered being (there is something deeply personally repulsive to me about that power fantasy) and especially a closed time-loop where we 'become' the Azem that was friends with two characters I do not like - Emet and Hythlodaeus- and have zero desire to have a single addition quest involving them. And the time loop aspects of EW are already the most controversial element - and such an ending for my WoL where they become trapped in the Ancient PreSundered society is a bad ending regardless of anything related to the Final Days.

Would I mind the MSQ eventually having us interact with another person who also carries a shard of Azem? Not at all. But I don't want to have their soul in our by the end of that plotline either - frankly I hope that there's a way that when we die the piece of Ardbert is separated from us to rejoin his friends on the First.

With our JRPG mandate of fighting all the gods - let's be honest, the only time I want to see Azem in-game is as a trial boss where we as the WoL and all the other bearers of their shard across the Shards defeat them in combat.

I wouldn’t want it to be anything negative either. And while I’d admire the story-telling nerve of ending the MSQ with our characters going back in time and being sundered - I’d much rather our character go back in time to prevent the sundering - while also finding a way to preserve our timeline and friends. I’d wager the writers would opt for that version, since it would make the most people happy.

[Tehmon]

Even if we were to fully rejoin, we wouldn't be Azem, we would just have the fully rejoined soul of an ancient person that was once Azem.

Emet revealed that the remaining inhabitants of Source who survive the rejoinings would be sacrificed to Zodiark to bring back their loved ones, the previously sacrificed. I reckon those souls would come back in the form they were sacrificed in and would hold their memories, otherwise the ascian plot makes zero sense. I presume this would mean that those who survive all the rejoinings wouldn't suddenly become the unsundered ancients they once were, and in addition all the souls reborn in the rejoined world wouldn't be any more closer to being the ancients they were pre-sundering, aside from being as powerful, intelligent and long-lived as they once were. Emet's plan on sacrificing the lives of the Source wouldn't make much sense if those fully rejoined became the ancients they were, especially since Emet must have known that Azem, his supposed great friend, is somewhere out there.

The one rejoining we had in ShB was basically just a power-up. Otherwise it didn't seem to have affected us otherwise. I reckon the rest of the rejoinings would just be power-ups as well, and not magical memory removal/retrieval devices as well. I mean heck, we are eight times rejoined now, but we aren't getting any flashbacks to the life of Azem.

This is to say, that whether we rejoined fully or not, we will never '' become '' Azem. At least, I very much doubt that.

What throws a little bit of a wrench to this though is Varis' plan. Become fully rejoined so we can fight the ascians, but also become a unified race, much like the ascians... So what exactly happens when a soul is fully rejoined? I'm still of the mind that rejoinings are just power-ups, but that's only a theory of someone who isn't fully versed in the lore, I admit.

[Shookbeast]

Even if we were to fully rejoin, we wouldn't be Azem, we would just have the fully rejoined soul of an ancient person that was once Azem.

Emet revealed that the remaining inhabitants of Source who survive the rejoinings would be sacrificed to Zodiark to bring back their loved ones, the previously sacrificed. I reckon those souls would come back in the form they were sacrificed in and would hold their memories, otherwise the ascian plot makes zero sense. I presume this would mean that those who survive all the rejoinings wouldn't suddenly become the unsundered ancients they once were, and in addition all the souls reborn in the rejoined world wouldn't be any more closer to being the ancients they were pre-sundering, aside from being as powerful, intelligent and long-lived as they once were. Emet's plan on sacrificing the lives of the Source wouldn't make much sense if those fully rejoined became the ancients they were, especially since Emet must have known that Azem, his supposed great friend, is somewhere out there.

The one rejoining we had in ShB was basically just a power-up. Otherwise it didn't seem to have affected us otherwise. I reckon the rest of the rejoinings would just be power-ups as well, and not magical memory removal/retrieval devices as well. I mean heck, we are eight times rejoined now, but we aren't getting any flashbacks to the life of Azem.

This is to say, that whether we rejoined fully or not, we will never '' become '' Azem. At least, I very much doubt that.

What throws a little bit of a wrench to this though is Varis' plan. Become fully rejoined so we can fight the ascians, but also become a unified race, much like the ascians... So what exactly happens when a soul is fully rejoined? I'm still of the mind that rejoinings are just power-ups, but that's only a theory of someone who isn't fully versed in the lore, I admit.

I’m in the theory boat where we “become Azem” by collecting our shards and then going back in time. The back in time part is the key element here. It supposes that the untold part of Azem’s story is that they “appear one day and act really weird” which is the starting reason for why the Ancients think Azem is so strange. Of course, Azem is strange - they didn’t exist until the WOL from the future appeared.

So in this theory, we actually are Azem, and Azem is us. We just show up one day in the past - likely on an MSQ to save the day somehow. This might be accomplished by another attempt at a closed time loop - or possibly something even trickier where we prevent the sundering - while also saving our timeline (not sure how that’s possible, but it could be).

Personally, I think it’s pretty likely to happen, but I’m not sure if the writers plan on making it a many expansion arc - or if it’s something they plan on wrapping up real quick over the next few patches. At this rate - it could be either (:

[Rulakir]

Emet revealed that the remaining inhabitants of Source who survive the rejoinings would be sacrificed to Zodiark to bring back their loved ones, the previously sacrificed. I reckon those souls would come back in the form they were sacrificed in and would hold their memories, otherwise the ascian plot makes zero sense. I presume this would mean that those who survive all the rejoinings wouldn't suddenly become the unsundered ancients they once were, and in addition all the souls reborn in the rejoined world wouldn't be any more closer to being the ancients they were pre-sundering, aside from being as powerful, intelligent and long-lived as they once were. Emet's plan on sacrificing the lives of the Source wouldn't make much sense if those fully rejoined became the ancients they were, especially since Emet must have known that Azem, his supposed great friend, is somewhere out there.

Emet also tells the WoL at the Lift that if they survive the calamities they will become their equal, a complete being in a complete world. Their goal was to make things whole again, which is why I never bought into the interpretation that he meant to sacrifice the sundered on the Source. I can see how some arrived at that impression, but it doesn't make sense given their objective. EW further threw a wrench into that by showing that the souls of those sacrificed are trapped within Zodiark, so it'd be counterproductive.

As for remembering their past selves, there are hints of that in ShB. Alisaie in particular says:

"The starshower didn't awaken me to Hydaelyn's voice. But that vision of the Final Days, of Amaurot burning... It filled me with sadness to the very pit of my being. Things I once knew, people I once loved, promises I once made... It felt as though long-forgotten memories were dancing at the edges of my mind. But when I try to focus on them, they simply fade away. An effect of having a fractured soul, I shouldn't doubt."

[Tehmon]

Emet also tells the WoL at the Lift that if they survive the calamities they will become their equal, a complete being in a complete world. Their goal was to make things whole again, which is why I never bought into the interpretation that he meant to sacrifice the sundered on the Source. I can see how some arrived at that impression, but it doesn't make sense given their objective. EW further threw a wrench into that by showing that the souls of those sacrificed are trapped within Zodiark, so it'd be counterproductive.

As for remembering their past selves, there are hints of that in ShB. Alisaie in particular says:

"The starshower didn't awaken me to Hydaelyn's voice. But that vision of the Final Days, of Amaurot burning... It filled me with sadness to the very pit of my being. Things I once knew, people I once loved, promises I once made... It felt as though long-forgotten memories were dancing at the edges of my mind. But when I try to focus on them, they simply fade away. An effect of having a fractured soul, I shouldn't doubt."

I personally do not doubt the plan to sacrifice the rejoined Source. Majority of ancients already okay'd the third sacrifice in the pre-sundered world, I don't see how sacrificing the rejoined Source would be any different than the last time. Emet trying to lure us into the idea that the shards need to be rejoined for our benefit as well, and that we can work together peacefully (granted we can control the light), it is all just manipulation to me. But I confess that I am biased when it comes to Emet specifically in ShB, as I believe there is nothing redeemable or humane about him anymore, despite the story making us question his eagerness and conviction, that he might harbor guilt and pain for things he must do. I confess I always believe the worst of ShB Emet lol!

I forgot about that piece of dialogue. I'm not entirely sure how accurate or real those memories are to that one soul in specific, or if the starshowers just generally induced a very strong reaction to the past events that would feel like true memories. But Emet also said that we might have very vague memories of the past, so I'm not sure. Safe to say that we have yet to see any past memories of Azem though, even if we are eight times rejoined.