6.1 Samurai: the Kaiten removal was the right choice but it's not enough

[CapricaLangley]

First of all, I don't want to offend anybody who dislikes the change. This is just my perspective and I don't think it's the "truth". I know it's an unpopular opinion but I want to understand other players perspective on the matter.

I really enjoyed the removal of Kaiten from a game design point of view.

Kaiten was basically useless from a game design and gameplay perspective. If you use something every single time before a specific skill, it's better to just remove it. In my opinion it was a good "flavour" skill but clearly unnecessary when taking into account the whole rotation.

Personally I loved the skill animation, but what I loved even more was SAM identity as a big burst class with combos. That's why I think the real problem is that now SAM feels like a solid combo class with small bursts. I'm strongly against class homogenization (if you check my history you can see how long ago i started a big thread on that particular matter) but I think the Kaiten removal is not the culprit this time. I'm worried that a lot of players are framing Kaiten as a scapegoat for this particular identity loss.

But why did I say that the change is not enough? Because in my opinion the removal of Kaiten raised the curtain on the real problem with Samurai, which is Kenki. Kenki now feels like a useless resource because it basically had just a couple functions and lost it's primary one.

Now that any other class has gap closers and movement abilities, it makes no sense to tie the Samurai ones with Kenki. And it makes no sense to have a main spender that you basically brainlessly spam throughout the whole rotation. I know that is very difficult to understand this point of view if you are a long-time Samurai player and see Kenki and Kaiten as the true identity of SAM, but IMHO the removal of Kaiten wasn't the cure because Kaiten was just a symptom of a bigger disease, which is the class resource spenders.

You can't tailor a functioning and functional "melee caster" based on big numbers around small resource spenders. There's a reason why BLM is and always has been (except maybe for Stormblood) the most solid job in the whole FFXIV roster.

It's blatantly obvious that Square-Enix could simply entirely remove Shinten and increase auto-attack power to make the job feel better. I'd really like to see Samurai embrace it's identity as a big numbers job based on huge bursts of damage, even if that would mean losing Kenki (of course the devs could just insert more "important" spenders) forever along with Kaiten.

As I said, I know this is currently a very controversial opinion, but I'd like to hear what other SAM players think about that perspective.

[YukiB]

They should remove combos too. I hate having to press Hakaze before every Shifu, Jinpu, and Yukikaze. If you use something every single time before a specific skill, it's better to just remove it.

[Kaseladen]

No I don't agree with this in the slightest

[CapricaLangley]

They should remove combos too. I hate having to press Hakaze before every Shifu, Jinpu, and Yukikaze. If you use something every single time before a specific skill, it's better to just remove it.

I understand that this might seem like the perspective of a payer who just wants to over simplify the playstyle of a job, and I was sure that this would lead to sarcastic answers. But think about it: what was the raison d'etre behind Kaiten? Why was it designed and how was it used by the playerbase? It's not a combo action, it doesn't have direct damage, it's basically always used for buffing a single skill.

[Gemina]

But why did I say that the change is not enough? Because in my opinion the removal of Kaiten raised the curtain on the real problem with Samurai, which is Kenki. Kenki now feels like a useless resource because it basically had just a couple functions and lost it's primary one.

You can't really support the removal of Kaiten, while also recognizing that an issue with Kenki is Shinten/Kyuten spam. This is a circumstance from the removal of Kaiten, and also Seigan as Kenki spenders.

While there are valid reasons to support the removal of Kaiten, there is yet to be a strong enough defense to really make sense of it. IOW, the cons outweigh the pros.

The way I see it is Kaiten and its removal was a tipping point. While the impact is tough to stomach, the removal of it by itself is not enough to turn SAM upside down. Kaiten served as the line the devs crossed that made the job nearly unplayable. Players could deal with the 2 charge Meikyo/Tsubame (very tacked on and thoughtless additions to SAM), Iko not turning into Ogi, Seigan removal, potency nerfs, and even not being at the top of the food chain anymore: They still had Kaiten. Removing Kaiten made the Jenga tower fall.

[YukiB]

I understand that this might seem like the perspective of a payer who just wants to over simplify the playstyle of a job, and I was sure that this would lead to sarcastic answers. But think about it: what was the raison d'etre behind Kaiten? Why was it designed and how was it used by the playerbase? It's not a combo action, it doesn't have direct damage, it's basically always used for buffing a single skill.

What makes you think I was sarcastic? Do you just not like my argument? It's your argument just applied to a different skill.

Hakaze only exists to allow us to use the rest of the combo. The combo only exists to allow us to use iaijutsu. None of that's necessary. They could even just let us use the iaijutsu. It's just damage at the end of the day.

Here, let's say the sen generators have to stay so we can access all the iaijutsu. That's fair. Shifu and Jinpu don't really need to exist, though. Just move their buffs to Kasha and Gekko. Now shuffle potencies around. Currently to execute a Midare Setsugekka we have to use these skills first with this much potency:

Hakaze x3: 600
Shifu: 280
Kasha: 380
Jinpu: 280
Gekko: 380
Yukikaze: 300
Midare Setsugekka: 600 (960 with 60% crit damage)

So that's 3180 potency over 9 GCDs with the guaranteed crit. That's about 353 potency per GCD. If we reduce that down to the only GCDs that really matter then we could give Kasha, Gekko, and Yukikaze 260 potency each and Midare 400 potency with a guaranteed crit, and it would come out to about the same average. There! I just consolidated the rotation into 4 GCDs. Doesn't it seem a lot better already?

But hey, we can go your route too and delete kenki. Each kenki is worth 10 potency and the Midare rotation generates 60 of it. That's effectively 3780 potency over 9 GCDs now. Now we're at exactly 420 potency per GCD. We can make Kasha, Gekko, and Yukikaze 300 potency each, and Midare 490 potency plus crit, and we don't even need kenki anymore. Look at all the action bloat we're addressing!

We can do the same with Shoha, Tsubame-gaeshi, Ogi Namikiri, Hissatsu: Senei, Meikyo Shisui, and Ikishoten if you want. At the end of the day they're all just numbers, and we press them at the same time in every fight. You can just add up the potencies and distribute them across Kasha, Gekko, Yukikaze, and Midare Setsugekka.

Oh, but then there's Higanbana, too. Well, we can just scrap that too, no one likes having to manage DoTs. Oh, but, the sen system seems kind of redundant now. We got rid of kenki for being redundant too, might as well scrap sen as well. But everyone likes pressing Midare, so we can just make that our GCD and average out all the potency into it. Wouldn't want to have to press any other buttons before it, right?

Do you see the problem with this reductionist, spreadsheet style of game development yet? Maybe not every skill has to have some deep meaning for its existence. Maybe they can just be fun.

[CapricaLangley]

You can't really support the removal of Kaiten, while also recognizing that an issue with Kenki is Shinten/Kyuten spam. This is a circumstance from the removal of Kaiten, and also Seigan as Kenki spenders.

The point I try to make with this post is that if we take a closer look to Kaiten from a game design perspective, apart from emotional attachment and habits, (IMHO) is clear that it's an unnecessary skill. And when I realized that the main Kenki spender in the rotation is an unnecessary skill, I started to question the whole Kenki system. That's why I suggest that Kaiten is a symptom from a different disease, and why in my opinion bringing back Kaiten won't solve the problem.

Again, I'm well aware that a lot of players don't see this as a problem, but I think the job might get better if the removal of Kaiten was just the first step in a bigger SAM resource rework.

[Xion136]

snip

Honestly the fact SAM isn't the top of the DPS charts with BLM is still wrong. It's a selfish DPS that doesn't add anything but damage, damage, and more damage. It's not Monk who has brotherhood, or ninja with Mug. We shouldn't settle for anything less than fighting for top DPS with black mage because that's literally [I]our entire thing[/s].

Kaiten was just the straw, honestly everything else was just heaping crap ok until finally Kaiten was removed and it heralded a fairly unsatisfying rotation and depressing numbers, even if damage is the same using our five napkins and a half empty bic pen, because damage meters are against the rules.

[Kaseladen]

The point I try to make with this post is that if we take a closer look to Kaiten from a game design perspective, apart from emotional attachment and habits, (IMHO) is clear that it's an unnecessary skill. And when I realized that the main Kenki spender in the rotation is an unnecessary skill, I started to question the whole Kenki system. That's why I suggest that Kaiten is a symptom from a different disease, and why in my opinion bringing back Kaiten won't solve the problem.

Again, I'm well aware that a lot of players don't see this as a problem, but I think the job might get better if the removal of Kaiten was just the first step in a bigger SAM resource rework.

And his point is you don't seem to be good at game design

[CapricaLangley]

And his point is you don't seem to be good at game design

That makes perfectly sense, I'm not a game designer, I have no defense on that. But why would the devs - seasoned game designers - think to remove the skill in the first place in your opinion?