The Mug change, predictably, feels like garbage.

[aloneatsea]

snip

I feel you, I do, even if I don't agree with some of your personal takes. Ninja feels like it's being tugged in two distinct directions right now, and it just feels like a mess as a result.



I'd feel like the levelling argument would hold more weight if not for two things:

1. Levelling is temporary, endgame is forever. While it's important to make sure the levelling process isn't outright awful, I strongly disagree with making sacrifices on the part of Level 90 content for the sake of making a temporary situation better. You spend so much more time at level cap than you do at any other point during the game. Levelling is faster than it's ever been, too.
2. Other jobs suffer worse! Dancer and Bard are even more reliant than NIN on party members feeding into buffs to make the most of their kit, so should we gut them as well? What about healers, with their incredibly low personal DPS? Sure, they can heal themselves, but doing any kind of solo duty takes twice as long.

I do really agree that levelling Ninja doesn't feel super great, but I just can't agree with gimping Trick and giving more personal damage for the sake of levelling. Rather, we should tune solo content such that it can be completed by any job.

I do see what you're saying about Ninja being either very strong or very weak, but even in 6.05, where Ninja was arguably at its weakest in a good long while, it was still very possible to complete content with the job. I cleared P4S during 6.05 on Ninja; as did many others. While I do empathise with not feeling like your job is strong or worthwhile if your numbers hit a little lower than other jobs in your role, I don't think Ninja has in recent times had the issue of being so weak it was excluded from parties. Of course, this is me speaking anecdotally, maybe others have had different experiences.

We've already kind of gone down the track of 'Ninja's personal damage is too weak, it's too reliant on others for DPS' with the move from 10% DMG up -> 5% DMG up in Shadowbringers, which is a pretty substantial nerf to rDPS! It's very difficult to argue making a personal buff much weaker; 5% is simultaneously not a lot of damage and also a huge amount of damage.

I guess my main question is, where do we draw the line? If we follow this train of thought to its logical conclusion, every job becomes selfish and party buffs cease to exist. I don't think anybody genuinely wants this, nor do I think we'd ever actually get to that point, because (at least in my opinion) party buffs are fun! It feels good to buff and be buffed. It's rewarding when you play into it. But -- the fact remains that if you continue to gnaw away at existing buffs, jobs become more and more selfish over time.


The biggest loss, however, is that NIN's party buff is no longer on the 1-minute cooldown, which is just heartbreaking for so many reasons. For many reasons, including what you pointed out.

I do disagree that moving Trick to a personal buff opens up more flexibility in design. You're still pressing the same buttons, and Trick is still a damage up ability, it just only affects you now. Trick becoming personal doesn't affect how many abilities you press inside of Trick. Rather, Mug becoming a party buff does, because it prevents you from pooling Ninki and means you have one fewer oGCD to hit inside Trick. While this does technically more oGCD weaving windows, I'd argue it's a regression because what kind of builder-spender job isn't able to build for burst? Ninja is uniquely punished at the moment for entering a two-minute burst window; you're in most situations forced to use a Bhava before you get your buffs up, which feels like such a waste. Removes the itty little bit of skill expression of drifting Mug into Trick, too.

I don't know, I just... mm. The solo experience shouldn't suck, but it just seems a little backwards to me to balance an MMO -- a multiplayer-focused game -- on a solo player experience. Make it not suck, absolutely! Make it reasonable and clearable. But -- shit, Ninja was one of three big buffing classes in the game. Now we just have Dancer and Bard as big buffers. Sure, many jobs have two-minute buffs (12/19, by my count), but when everyone has a two-minute buff, it's the same thing as nobody having a two-minute buff...

[Jaquan]

I don't know, I just... mm. The solo experience shouldn't suck, but it just seems a little backwards to me to balance an MMO -- a multiplayer-focused game -- on a solo player experience. Make it not suck, absolutely! Make it reasonable and clearable. But -- shit, Ninja was one of three big buffing classes in the game. Now we just have Dancer and Bard as big buffers. Sure, many jobs have two-minute buffs (12/19, by my count), but when everyone has a two-minute buff, it's the same thing as nobody having a two-minute buff...

Don't you see an Irony here? Ninja - a job with a single party wide buff was relegated to the same role as Dancer and Bard despite the latter devoting half of their kit towards that goal. A single ability that created so many weird connections that Ninja has pretty much no room for personal growth without a risk of making it broken. Even Dancer and Bard have more room to growth since at worst all you need to do is ti weaken synergy with another class yet that doesn't really apply to one that synergizes on high level with almost every other party member.

[aloneatsea]

Don't you see an Irony here? Ninja - a job with a single party wide buff was relegated to the same role as Dancer and Bard despite the latter devoting half of their kit towards that goal. A single ability that created so many weird connections that Ninja has pretty much no room for personal growth without a risk of making it broken. Even Dancer and Bard have more room to growth since at worst all you need to do is ti weaken synergy with another class yet that doesn't really apply to one that synergizes on high level with almost every other party member.

You say 'relegated' here like being a buffing class is a bad thing. And yes, one ability can be that impactful. Old Trick's short cooldown and power (5% is the second-highest DMG buff iirc? might be wrong) means it is up 25% of the time - Mug's uptime is only 16.67%, and it's one of the better buffs out there at the moment.

Again, you say weird connections -- I'd call that synergy, personally -- but I don't think I'm understanding you when you say that it limits Ninja's personal growth. We've been growing just fine -- Raijus are a fun addition to the job, even if they took a bit of tweaking. There's plenty of room to add different mudras, add more Ninki spenders, add more oGCDs; hell, maybe we even get another gauge to manage so we have something to do during our downtime. We could bring DOT management back, have some different combo paths, there's really infinite possibilites.

You say Dancer and Bard have more room to grow, but I'm not quite understanding where you're coming from. Why do you need to weaken synergy between classes in order for them to experience 'growth'? That just sounds like we'd be headed towards a future where there's no party buffs at all - and at that point, we might as well be playing a single player game.

I do want what I do to impact other classes, y'know? I like buffing, and I want to keep doing it. As it stands, Ninja has gone from one of three (buffer-types) to one of twelve (classes with a two-minute buff). It's definitely gotten less unique.

[Jaquan]

You say 'relegated' here like being a buffing class is a bad thing. And yes, one ability can be that impactful. Old Trick's short cooldown and power (5% is the second-highest DMG buff iirc? might be wrong) means it is up 25% of the time - Mug's uptime is only 16.67%, and it's one of the better buffs out there at the moment.

Again, you say weird connections -- I'd call that synergy, personally -- but I don't think I'm understanding you when you say that it limits Ninja's personal growth. We've been growing just fine -- Raijus are a fun addition to the job, even if they took a bit of tweaking. There's plenty of room to add different mudras, add more Ninki spenders, add more oGCDs; hell, maybe we even get another gauge to manage so we have something to do during our downtime. We could bring DOT management back, have some different combo paths, there's really infinite possibilites.

You say Dancer and Bard have more room to grow, but I'm not quite understanding where you're coming from. Why do you need to weaken synergy between classes in order for them to experience 'growth'? That just sounds like we'd be headed towards a future where there's no party buffs at all - and at that point, we might as well be playing a single player game.

I do want what I do to impact other classes, y'know? I like buffing, and I want to keep doing it. As it stands, Ninja has gone from one of three (buffer-types) to one of twelve (classes with a two-minute buff). It's definitely gotten less unique.

I'm afraid we're not reaching an agreement here (which is fine). For me the fact that the supposed "buff oriented party player" Ninja for entirety of their kit holds only one skill from that area feels more like an accident. An accident that held Ninja's personal damage hostage since any adjustment that would increase it would skew the meta in their favor. No matter how many mechanics Ninja would have their damage potential would be held back cementing its opinion of "Too much work for too little gains" which was something I could rather easily find when looking up info about pre 6.1 Ninja. All the synergies feel more like an accident considering that not a single skill in Ninja Kit after learning Suiton ever expands on it instead trying to pretend they focus on Ninja's own damage.

[butchersblock]

I'm afraid we're not reaching an agreement here (which is fine). For me the fact that the supposed "buff oriented party player" Ninja for entirety of their kit holds only one skill from that area feels more like an accident. An accident that held Ninja's personal damage hostage since any adjustment that would increase it would skew the meta in their favor. No matter how many mechanics Ninja would have their damage potential would be held back cementing its opinion of "Too much work for too little gains" which was something I could rather easily find when looking up info about pre 6.1 Ninja. All the synergies feel more like an accident considering that not a single skill in Ninja Kit after learning Suiton ever expands on it instead trying to pretend they focus on Ninja's own damage.

what is wrong with Ninja not having the highest aDPS? It never stopped the job from being meta.

[Jaquan]

And yet if you look at opinions about Ninja the common one I found on Reddit and few other places was once again too much work required for too little of gains. Also I probably have to learn how to use data better because... I don't think 6.0 Ninja was that meta in Asphodelos considering in submitted data the Ninja usage was between 10 - 20% depending on a boss.

[butchersblock]

And yet if you look at opinions about Ninja the common one I found on Reddit and few other places was once again too much work required for too little of gains. Also I probably have to learn how to use data better because... I don't think 6.0 Ninja was that meta in Asphodelos considering in submitted data the Ninja usage was between 10 - 20% depending on a boss.

You're cherrypicking here. Ninja is nowhere near as complicated as some people on the forums would have you believe, take that from a Ninja player. It's been extremely meta since Shadowbringers, and was only weak at Endwalker launch, which was quickly fixed in 6.05 and 6.08.

[Jaquan]

Oh then please excuse me. I
Didn't notice the fact it received any changes before 6.1, my bad. I still feel it's better for the job to have venue to get stronger on it's own and if the single skill kept them from reaching it I'm more than fine with it.

Though looking at data it does seem that Ninja is now more popular pick than ever and I can't say it's only because of SAM eating hard nerfs

[aloneatsea]

Oh then please excuse me. I
Didn't notice the fact it received any changes before 6.1, my bad. I still feel it's better for the job to have venue to get stronger on it's own and if the single skill kept them from reaching it I'm more than fine with it.

Though looking at data it does seem that Ninja is now more popular pick than ever and I can't say it's only because of SAM eating hard nerfs

The common opinion that Ninja is difficult stems from the fact that you have to learn three mudras in order to get functional with the job. I've never heard anyone who's spent a significant amount of time on the job call it difficult or complicated. I'd say Ninja is problem one of the easiest jobs to play at a high level -- it's very rote.

As butchersblock has pointed out, it's also been absurdly strong since....5.1? The only time between then and now where it's been anything close to weak was 6.0 release - 6.05. 6.05 left it in a very reasonable state of balance (the problem at the time, iirc, is that Monk and Reaper were absurdly strong), and 6.08 buffed it to all high hell, where it became the single job with the highest DPS output.

6.1 then made the changes, which pushed its DPS to absolutely ridiculous heights. It was already absurdly strong, it absolutely did not need more buffs. You can look at the statistics from 6.0; Ninja had the highest overall damage throughout it all. The argument that Ninja didn't deal enough damage or needed to be stronger just doesn't hold up. So I ask -- what about Ninja needs to be 'stronger'? It certainly isn't -- and wasn't -- damage.

That 'single skill' was kind of the identity of the job. Should we remove Dance Partner so that Dancers can deal some better personal DPS? Why is a buffing class less valid if it does one thing and does it well? I just don't understand your arguments. Trick Attack was supremely powerful, what more did it need to be?

As for why Ninja hasn't been popular until now -- let me break down the contributing factors. Looking back at Shadowbringers, at least for Eden's Promise, Ninja was about the second most popular melee to bring to a fight, behind Samurai. What's changed since then?


1. Reaper came out, and is by far the most popular melee class. It's still the most popular melee class. A lot of Ninja mains will have jumped ship.
2. Ninja was released in an absolute state. A lot of people really hated Raijus on release, and for good reason -- it made playing the job in Zodiark EX incredibly painful at best. Not only that but the job was... really weak. This isn't an issue in general, given any class can clear any content, however...
3. Week 1 savage was fast approaching, and Ninja wasn't in a good state. With new abilities to learn and new rotations to memorise, would you stake your bet on the overpowered melee Reaper (who SE stated they wouldn't nerf) or the weak, poor-playing Ninja? Anyone who cared about clearing quickly is going to pick Reaper, and that's precisely what many groups did. after Week One, of course, you've used your gear on the classes you initially cleared with -- and the only thing more powerful than meta is gear. Why play your Ninja at 580 ilvl when your Reaper has 591 ilvl? Until 6.08, Ninja wasn't seeing much play at all aside from die-hard mains, because why would you pick it when Reaper/Monk were so much better? As much as I'd like to say meta doesn't matter, it does matter for Week 1, and many more people care much more about meta than they realistically should. Ninja numbers started picking up from 6.05, and by late 6.08 it had actually overtaken Machinist in terms of raw play numbers. It was on the rise; it just takes time.
4. Then comes DSR. DSR comes out a patch after 6.1, which means people have had time to play with the new, less-than-improved Ninja, and realised it is absolutely broken. Because it is! If there's anywhere meta is going to matter, it's in the race to world first an ultimate. Which is exactly why we saw so many statics having one of their melees swap to Ninja. It's the job with the most clears on the new Ultimate by a pretty large margin, and it will continue to be for some time. Bringing a job that shits out damage is going to be an inherent advantage no matter what when it comes to progging difficult content.

With these things in mind, I think it's really easy to see why Ninja's numbers have jerked around so much. It went being obscenely weak to reasonable, to very strong to utterly broken. Why wouldn't you play a broken class to help your static clear the hardest fight in the game?

It's very telling to me that a lot of the enthusiasm around 6.1 Ninja comes from people who don't main the class, whereas a lot of the vitriol comes from those who've played it a while now. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't pick up Ninja; it just means that Ninja was

1. Not strong enough to justify picking up for meta reasons
2. Fulfilled a different fantasy than than subset of players wanted

Now, it's absurdly strong, more than enough to justify swapping to adhere to the 'meta', and the fantasy it brings has changed to be more in line with other melee. Which is great, if you were tired of playing the other four melee, but sucks if you really enjoyed the unique job fantasy that Ninja provided. Given that we already have four melees that deal a ton of personal damage, I think it's fine if we have just the one that plays a little differently.

[Shurrikhan]

I’m not a monk but wasn’t their rework fairly well received?

Compared to being left a gutted mess for the latter half of Shadowbringers, sure.

But that's like being shocked that someone preferred having one arm to none.

The Blitz system itself is fine. It isn't anything especially great, but it's a solid enough base. The problem is how much else went missing over since late Stormblood.