"Button Bloat"

[Quyn]

Balance has already done the math and difference is only 3 DPS. In a vacuum, Samurai does the same damage on single target despite the nerfed potencies. AoE, on the other hand, saw a direct nerf. Unfortunately, by making everything guaranteed critical hits, this reduced Samurai's viability in crit heavy comps. Dancer, Dragoon and Scholar all suffer now for having one as their respective raid buffs won't impact any of Samurai's big hits. While this isn't a massive deal to the wider majority, it does effect the raid scene to an extent, especially the higher up. You already lost roughly 300 rDPS for Warrior existing in a crit comp. A DPS having such a handicap with be noticeably worse and make any WAR/SAM pairing borderline unviable with the aforementioned jobs. Less so Dancer as they can at least partner the other DPS but Bard doesn't want to be anywhere near a Warrior.

A 3 % DPS difference is borderline unviable? give me a break man.
Sure,yes, its counter- logical that another class now benefits less from crit buffs.

[HyoMinPark]

A 3 % DPS difference is borderline unviable? give me a break man.
Sure,yes, its counter- logical that another class now benefits less from crit buffs.

Forte said that SAM is less viable in Crit heavy comps. This is because of the anti-synergy their big hitting abilities now have with crit-based raid buffs like Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, and Devilment. Not that SAM was unviable in general. It’s all about party and raid buff composition. This only affects groups that chase high parses, so it won’t affect the more midcore or casual raiders; which they also acknowledged. But it’s still worth acknowledging all the same since this issue is already present in other jobs (WAR and it’s anti-synergy with BRD’s Battle Voice).

EDIT: arbitrary daily post limit hit—

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

It’s not feelycrafting to say that jobs that aren’t more in synergy with one another are a less viable alternative to jobs that do synergize. It’s purely fact. The same logic applied to SB BRD when it came to wanting SCH over the other two healers because of their synergy with Chain Strategem. It was less viable for the BRD to have WHM/AST compared to WHM/SCH or AST/SCH because they lost an important Crit buff to them. None of the comps were unviable to a BRD, but a non-SCH one had inherently less synergy than one with a SCH, and resulted in a damage loss.

If you care about bleeding edge parsing and leaderboards, this is important. If you don’t, then it isn’t. But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a thing to note.

[Quyn]

Forte said that SAM is less viable in Crit heavy comps. This is because of the anti-synergy their big hitting abilities now have with crit-based raid buffs like Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, and Devilment. Not that SAM was unviable in general. It’s all about party and raid buff composition. This only affects groups that chase high parses, so it won’t affect the more midcore or casual raiders; which they also acknowledged. But it’s still worth acknowledging all the same since this issue is already present in other jobs (WAR and it’s anti-synergy with BRD’s Battle Voice).

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

[Roxus]

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

No, that's not the worst case scenario. 3% is the average of a whole picture. Or logs. It's 12% when you are accounting for the ceiling. Further, the individual finishers are roughly 15-20% worse than before, which is what people look at more.

[Diadem]

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

Tell me you're bad at SAM and maths without telling me you're bad at SAM and maths. An other case of why should I understand when I could just follow.

[cjbeagle]

Re: OP

How about they just merge Second Wind and Bloodbath and give it 2 charges to make up for the separate cooldowns and save a button on all melee dps instead of eroding jobs' unique kits.

Could do something similar on every role - they all have role actions that are either effectively useless or could be replaced by a second charge on something else the job already has.

[LeonKeyh]

Re: OP

How about they just merge Second Wind and Bloodbath and give it 2 charges to make up for the separate cooldowns and save a button on all melee dps instead of eroding jobs' unique kits.

Could do something similar on every role - they all have role actions that are either effectively useless or could be replaced by a second charge on something else the job already has.

I feel like that's pissing on a forest fire. It seems like such a small change that doesn't really do much. I'll stand by the fact that they should be combining most (all) abilities that have single target and AoE versions.

Having an anemic AoE ability rotation taking up 20%-30% of your hot bar space that isn't used in a lot of content outside of dungeon trash pulls is silly. If they're afraid of doing it all at once, they can just slowly start combining everything.

Merging those 2 into the same thing could make a big change to how it works, bigger than combining abilities that do damage to 1 person vs many.

[Quyn]

Forte said that SAM is less viable in Crit heavy comps. This is because of the anti-synergy their big hitting abilities now have with crit-based raid buffs like Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, and Devilment. Not that SAM was unviable in general. It’s all about party and raid buff composition. This only affects groups that chase high parses, so it won’t affect the more midcore or casual raiders; which they also acknowledged. But it’s still worth acknowledging all the same since this issue is already present in other jobs (WAR and it’s anti-synergy with BRD’s Battle Voice).

EDIT: arbitrary daily post limit hit—



It’s not feelycrafting to say that jobs that aren’t more in synergy with one another are a less viable alternative to jobs that do synergize. It’s purely fact. The same logic applied to SB BRD when it came to wanting SCH over the other two healers because of their synergy with Chain Strategem. It was less viable for the BRD to have WHM/AST compared to WHM/SCH or AST/SCH because they lost an important Crit buff to them. None of the comps were unviable to a BRD, but a non-SCH one had inherently less synergy than one with a SCH, and resulted in a damage loss.

If you care about bleeding edge parsing and leaderboards, this is important. If you don’t, then it isn’t. But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a thing to note.

The statement was unviable, not, less- viable. thats a massive difference in statements with different implications.
I already agreed that its obviously worse, by a small margin.

[ForteNightshade]

The statement was unviable, not, less- viable. thats a massive difference in statements with different implications.
I already agreed that its obviously worse, by a small margin.

You're ignoring where I mentioned Warrior and Samurai being borderline unviable, together, in a crit heavy comp. To spell it out even further. A comp including the following jobs: WAR/SCH/SAM/DRG/BRD(or DNC) would border on unviability. Not that it couldn't be done but the overall loss of raid DPS simply wouldn't be worthwhile.

[ForteNightshade]

A 3 % DPS difference is borderline unviable? give me a break man.
Sure,yes, its counter- logical that another class now benefits less from crit buffs.

That... isn't what I said whatsoever. What I said bordered on being unviable is Warrior and Samurai specifically in a Crit heavy comp due to their lack of synergy. It's bad enough with just Warrior but ultimately won't impact the wider majority, especially with them being a tank whose DPS is naturally much longer. Pairing them together with Samurai in a comp running Scholar, Dragoon and Bard/Dancer, will see a pretty sizable DPS loss. Will it matter to the more midcore or casual groups. Not at all since gear is the all important equalizer. However, it is impactful in early prog and ensures any group aiming to parse won't allow either job.