"Button Bloat"

[RyuuZero]

When SAM only had Guren, Guren was used for single target and it wasn't a problem in SB.
Sen'ei was introduced and Guren was only used in multi targets. Guren became button bloat.

Okay Guren is redundant for providing the solution to the AoE situation while using the same resource as Senei?? Guren didn't became Button Bloat, it became the AoE Option

If SQEX introduced those buttons as single target, DRG would be suddenly bloated and the AoE versions would be barely pressed.

but SE did that, DRG has a 3tier AoE Combo that buffs the AoE Combo Starter and Single Target Combo Starter making you able to switch the Single Target Rotation and vise versa, but that's Dragoon not Samurai.

I prefer, instead of imagining, working within reality...
"Knowing when to hit the single target vs AE ability" isn't some major tactical knowledge as you're making it out to be and isn't something that is needed. 2 different versions of the same skill are not needed even within your imaginary scenario, they've done this with a ton of other skills already, this isn't a new idea:

Why do you play a Game with Fantasy in the Title?
Welcome to Alexander 4 Savage where there is an add that you have to kill with specific timing also and there might be even more Fights with addphases like that, luckily for A4S is lvl60 so you have Higanbana&Midare and unsynced makes that fight melt anyway but the devs can always bring that mechanic back. Interesting that you list all the Job like they're so similar, do you really want to sit on your resources until the situation is fitting?

This is why they removed Kaiten, they do not know how to play this Job just "Delete Kaiten, buff all the Skills" without thinking of the Ripple Effect that comes to the Gameplay and you guys all come up with those wild and unrelated ideas because the devs stated "button bloat". They effectivily just took away one button and Samurai now sucks as result but seeing all these ideas of merging skills it just was a matter of time until they ruined Samurai. Let's just argee on One Thing: They have to Bring Back Kaiten

[HyoMinPark]

Do expect me to write an disclaimer on how and when to use macros? that macro wasn't an order, just a suggestion for something we already can do ourselves or do you want to beg the devs for years until they do? funnily enough a Dragoon change of 6.1 is that jump turns into illusion jump, which I had as a macro for years.

Yes. Because you can’t shove a suggestion in someone’s face without also pointing out that utilizing combat macros has its downsides. You should always present the pros and cons of macros when suggesting them. Especially when you insist on doubling down on the suggestion:

though they wanted to address the button bloat and took Kaiten away. My Macro addresses the Button Bloat by making you pressing the same button 3times, try my Macro before saying it doesn't matter^^ but funnily I also have Shoha and Senei on a one button Macro xDD I tell you

I wonder how much damage you’ve lost out on with your poor macros. Or how many times they’ve misfired. More than you probably realize, I’m guessing.

we get a Single Target Ogi with 7.0 and there is nothing wrong about this

Yes there is, because it just adds to the redundancy and bloat problem. You do not need AOE and single target variants of the same skill when you already have AOE cleaves that are also viable in single target.

Okay Senei is redundant for providing the solution to the single target situation while using the same resource as Guren? Great that AoE falloff stuff is a thing on other jobs, then play those other jobs, I like to play Samurai and the removal of Kaiten is what keeps me from enjoying Samurai

Yes, it is redundant. Because Guren in SB already did what Senei does now. There was zero reason to add a second skill that did the same thing except was single-target.

And please with the “go play something else” response. Tired of seeing this non-argument. Come up with something better.

but SE did that, DRG has a 3tier AoE Combo that buffs the AoE Combo Starter and Single Target Combo Starter making you able to switch the Single Target Rotation and vise versa, but that's Dragoon not Samurai.

Okay and SAM already had an AOE rotation akin to DRG’s 3-tier AOE combo. And they also apply the same self buffs now. This is an irrelevant argument because it has nothing to do with the Guren/Senei and Shoha/Shoha II redundancy. Or even the Shinten/Kyuten redundancy.

[ForteNightshade]

Okay Guren is redundant for providing the solution to the AoE situation while using the same resource as Senei?? Guren didn't became Button Bloat, it became the AoE Option

One of Senei or Guren is button bloat because they are functionally the same ability, albeit one is only used in singlet target scenarios; the other AoE. If Guren were buffed to 800 potency with 60% fall off, it'd accomplish the exact same thing Senei does now. Likewise, if Senei had 60% fall off, it's essentially Guren. Both have no reason to exist beyond the dev team having no idea what new abilities to add and wanting to make a new animation. Pick whichever one you fancy and remove the other. They could even recycle the animation to a new skill down the road.

Welcome to Alexander 4 Savage where there is an add that you have to kill with specific timing also and there might be even more Fights with addphases like that, luckily for A4S is lvl60 so you have Higanbana&Midare and unsynced makes that fight melt anyway but the devs can always bring that mechanic back. Interesting that you list all the Job like they're so similar, do you really want to sit on your resources until the situation is fitting?

Are you talking about Dolls? You never stack them, thus making it entirely irrelevant if you use abilities with fall off damage. There has never been any fight where you'd have to delay oGCDs with fall off long enough for it to matter. Even in TEA you may hold something like Guren for all of a GCD or two. And you'll do that regardless because it's a gain on two targets. This whole scenario you keep insisting upon where there's an add that may explode if SAM didn't have a "choice" between Senei or Guren simply doesn't exist. If it did, Dragoon would be entirely unviable as it literally can't do its rotation with cleaving two targets.

And no, your macro doesn't work for the reasons HyoMin described. Pairing Ikishoten and Ogi in a macro will cause a particularly egregious clip due to macros forcing oGCDs into a flat 2.5s queue they otherwise don't have. This will cause you to bleed damage as you'll constantly clip your GCD. There's a reason nobody uses macros for GCD abilities.

[Quyn]

Balance has already done the math and difference is only 3 DPS. In a vacuum, Samurai does the same damage on single target despite the nerfed potencies. AoE, on the other hand, saw a direct nerf. Unfortunately, by making everything guaranteed critical hits, this reduced Samurai's viability in crit heavy comps. Dancer, Dragoon and Scholar all suffer now for having one as their respective raid buffs won't impact any of Samurai's big hits. While this isn't a massive deal to the wider majority, it does effect the raid scene to an extent, especially the higher up. You already lost roughly 300 rDPS for Warrior existing in a crit comp. A DPS having such a handicap with be noticeably worse and make any WAR/SAM pairing borderline unviable with the aforementioned jobs. Less so Dancer as they can at least partner the other DPS but Bard doesn't want to be anywhere near a Warrior.

A 3 % DPS difference is borderline unviable? give me a break man.
Sure,yes, its counter- logical that another class now benefits less from crit buffs.

[HyoMinPark]

A 3 % DPS difference is borderline unviable? give me a break man.
Sure,yes, its counter- logical that another class now benefits less from crit buffs.

Forte said that SAM is less viable in Crit heavy comps. This is because of the anti-synergy their big hitting abilities now have with crit-based raid buffs like Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, and Devilment. Not that SAM was unviable in general. It’s all about party and raid buff composition. This only affects groups that chase high parses, so it won’t affect the more midcore or casual raiders; which they also acknowledged. But it’s still worth acknowledging all the same since this issue is already present in other jobs (WAR and it’s anti-synergy with BRD’s Battle Voice).

EDIT: arbitrary daily post limit hit—

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

It’s not feelycrafting to say that jobs that aren’t more in synergy with one another are a less viable alternative to jobs that do synergize. It’s purely fact. The same logic applied to SB BRD when it came to wanting SCH over the other two healers because of their synergy with Chain Strategem. It was less viable for the BRD to have WHM/AST compared to WHM/SCH or AST/SCH because they lost an important Crit buff to them. None of the comps were unviable to a BRD, but a non-SCH one had inherently less synergy than one with a SCH, and resulted in a damage loss.

If you care about bleeding edge parsing and leaderboards, this is important. If you don’t, then it isn’t. But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a thing to note.

[Quyn]

Forte said that SAM is less viable in Crit heavy comps. This is because of the anti-synergy their big hitting abilities now have with crit-based raid buffs like Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, and Devilment. Not that SAM was unviable in general. It’s all about party and raid buff composition. This only affects groups that chase high parses, so it won’t affect the more midcore or casual raiders; which they also acknowledged. But it’s still worth acknowledging all the same since this issue is already present in other jobs (WAR and it’s anti-synergy with BRD’s Battle Voice).

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

[ForteNightshade]

A 3 % DPS difference is borderline unviable? give me a break man.
Sure,yes, its counter- logical that another class now benefits less from crit buffs.

That... isn't what I said whatsoever. What I said bordered on being unviable is Warrior and Samurai specifically in a Crit heavy comp due to their lack of synergy. It's bad enough with just Warrior but ultimately won't impact the wider majority, especially with them being a tank whose DPS is naturally much longer. Pairing them together with Samurai in a comp running Scholar, Dragoon and Bard/Dancer, will see a pretty sizable DPS loss. Will it matter to the more midcore or casual groups. Not at all since gear is the all important equalizer. However, it is impactful in early prog and ensures any group aiming to parse won't allow either job.

[Quyn]

Forte said that SAM is less viable in Crit heavy comps. This is because of the anti-synergy their big hitting abilities now have with crit-based raid buffs like Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, and Devilment. Not that SAM was unviable in general. It’s all about party and raid buff composition. This only affects groups that chase high parses, so it won’t affect the more midcore or casual raiders; which they also acknowledged. But it’s still worth acknowledging all the same since this issue is already present in other jobs (WAR and it’s anti-synergy with BRD’s Battle Voice).

EDIT: arbitrary daily post limit hit—



It’s not feelycrafting to say that jobs that aren’t more in synergy with one another are a less viable alternative to jobs that do synergize. It’s purely fact. The same logic applied to SB BRD when it came to wanting SCH over the other two healers because of their synergy with Chain Strategem. It was less viable for the BRD to have WHM/AST compared to WHM/SCH or AST/SCH because they lost an important Crit buff to them. None of the comps were unviable to a BRD, but a non-SCH one had inherently less synergy than one with a SCH, and resulted in a damage loss.

If you care about bleeding edge parsing and leaderboards, this is important. If you don’t, then it isn’t. But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a thing to note.

The statement was unviable, not, less- viable. thats a massive difference in statements with different implications.
I already agreed that its obviously worse, by a small margin.

[CelestiCer]

Action Bloat implies there's a problem that we require to cast to many skills, and honestly? the Action Bloat we have currently with Samurai isn't the issue, it's the REASON so many SAM's play SAM. We love it! we just don't label it as Action Bloat we call it... " Weaving "

Button Bloat implies there's an issue with to many skills to fit on your hotbar.
- We can set our hot bars to fit everything
- We aren't even the class with the most Button Bloat
- There are numerous ways to tackle this then removing our Kaiten

I can't even recall anyone complaining about Samurai Pre-6.1 update that made it so unbearably torturingly unplayable, warranting any changes we have now (torturingly is that a word right?). The Nr1 complaint I ever heard... of Samurai? is this -> " Why are all the skills in Japanese? It's confusing "...

While I can indulge in brainstorming for solutions as much as the next person and heck I have in the form of my own suggestions on my own Feedback post... Unless I can see what Skills we are supposed to make room for? I don't see any Button Bloat issues we're trying to solve.

We would be just combining skills for Quality of Life changes at best
PS: I am not trying to flame any ideas we bring, I am trying to reason in my lil noggin with the changes we received that made absolutely no sense to me...

[Roxus]

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

No, that's not the worst case scenario. 3% is the average of a whole picture. Or logs. It's 12% when you are accounting for the ceiling. Further, the individual finishers are roughly 15-20% worse than before, which is what people look at more.