"Button Bloat"

[ExcogEnjoyer]

imagine you have an add next to you that explodes on hit, now would you stop using you Kenki Burst Skills and lose dps until the add is taken care of or you just press your skills and wipe?

This is a trick question because square enix doesnt put adds in their fights.

[Ransu]

This is a trick question because square enix doesnt put adds in their fights.

Uh, what? Yes they do lol.

[Shurrikhan]

imagine you have an add next to you that explodes on hit, now would you stop using you Kenki Burst Skills and lose dps until the add is taken care of or you just press your skills and wipe?

Rule of thumb: If there's more than one target available, and it's after Stormblood, there are probably no meaningful mechanics anyways.

More simply put, your sole reason for 3 buttons worth of bloat there is a hypothetical situation has never and probably will never exist.

That said, even if it were introduced, you need only make the consolidated Shoha a linear AoE, a la Guren, and aim away... No bloat needed.

[Ransu]

Their comment on action bloat doesn't make sense either though. Now we just spam shinten in its place and weave gyoten into the rotation with the left over kenki. In essence the APM has remained unchanged. The devs really didn't think this change through and I hate that our big hitters feel like wet noodles now.

Stop!
Shoha is for Single Target, Shoha 2 is for AoE
Shinten is for Single Target, Kyuten is for AoE
Senei is for Single Target, Guren is for AoE
Gyoten is to Rush to the Enemy, Yaten is to attack while retreat
On Tsubamegaeshi, we agree

imagine you have an add next to you that explodes on hit, now would you stop using you Kenki Burst Skills and lose dps until the add is taken care of or you just press your skills and wipe? there is a reason why we have skills for those 2 situations and not understanding this is what brought us here, the removal of Kaiten is wrong!

also here is a Macro that turns Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri:
/macroicon "Ikishoten"
/ac "Ikishoten"
/ac "Ogi Namikiri"

additional notes:
1. press this macro 3 times, 1st for Ikishoten, 2nd for Ogi Namikiri, 3rd for Kaeshi Namikiri. I call this Macro: Double Slice Buster
2. use Auto-translation for /macroicon, "Ikishoten" and "Ogi Namikiri" so the Game can read this Macro on all clients
3. did you noticed that Ikishoten has the same cool down as Senei and Guren? perfect to combo Senei into Ogi (for Single Target) or Guren into Ogi (for AoE) depending on the situation.

We hardly ever press guren or shoha 2. There's ZERO reason for them to be their own button. I generally don't like the whole button bloat argument, but I also don't like redundant skills either. Shoha and Senei could easily act like the myriad of other aoe skills in the game where the first target gets the normal potency and then the remaining targets get a reduced potency hit.

And your macro comment doesn't really change the argument that if they wanted to deal with bloat they could have combined ishikoten and ogi without taking away kaiten. Reality is they removed kaiten because of scaling reasons as they are clearly going to be making significant changes to stats and what not in 7.0. Sadly they chose samurai as an early experiment for 7.0 changes they are working on.

[M_Red]

I have to add that they heavily nerfed the finishers.

An example would be that Namikiri, if I used Kaiten and both slashes would crit, it could do about 120k damage. But now it does barely 60k (less depending on variables), and it keeps the same huge cooldown.

It wouldn’t be that bad if they shortened the cooldown to use it by at least 60 seconds (or make it useable without Ikishoten so the devs don’t have to worry about players getting too much in the Kenki Gauge… although it used to be 60 seconds before Endwalker).

Overall, this felt all incredibly unneeded in every sense of the word. Was anyone really unsatisfied with Samurai? Or did they just want to make it streamlined and feel like the other jobs?

[ForteNightshade]

What I'm more concerned about is the flat, predictable curve of damage that Samurai now deals, the fact that in these "buffs" we've actually lost damage from 6.08 due to the severity of the Kaeshi: Namikiri, Midare, and Shoha nerfs as the buffs to basic attack combos doesn't truly balance that deficit out. It's also not fun how these changes are making the community react in the way that they see Samurai now as less viable.

Balance has already done the math and difference is only 3 DPS. In a vacuum, Samurai does the same damage on single target despite the nerfed potencies. AoE, on the other hand, saw a direct nerf. Unfortunately, by making everything guaranteed critical hits, this reduced Samurai's viability in crit heavy comps. Dancer, Dragoon and Scholar all suffer now for having one as their respective raid buffs won't impact any of Samurai's big hits. While this isn't a massive deal to the wider majority, it does effect the raid scene to an extent, especially the higher up. You already lost roughly 300 rDPS for Warrior existing in a crit comp. A DPS having such a handicap with be noticeably worse and make any WAR/SAM pairing borderline unviable with the aforementioned jobs. Less so Dancer as they can at least partner the other DPS but Bard doesn't want to be anywhere near a Warrior.

[Quyn]

Balance has already done the math and difference is only 3 DPS. In a vacuum, Samurai does the same damage on single target despite the nerfed potencies. AoE, on the other hand, saw a direct nerf. Unfortunately, by making everything guaranteed critical hits, this reduced Samurai's viability in crit heavy comps. Dancer, Dragoon and Scholar all suffer now for having one as their respective raid buffs won't impact any of Samurai's big hits. While this isn't a massive deal to the wider majority, it does effect the raid scene to an extent, especially the higher up. You already lost roughly 300 rDPS for Warrior existing in a crit comp. A DPS having such a handicap with be noticeably worse and make any WAR/SAM pairing borderline unviable with the aforementioned jobs. Less so Dancer as they can at least partner the other DPS but Bard doesn't want to be anywhere near a Warrior.

A 3 % DPS difference is borderline unviable? give me a break man.
Sure,yes, its counter- logical that another class now benefits less from crit buffs.

[HyoMinPark]

A 3 % DPS difference is borderline unviable? give me a break man.
Sure,yes, its counter- logical that another class now benefits less from crit buffs.

Forte said that SAM is less viable in Crit heavy comps. This is because of the anti-synergy their big hitting abilities now have with crit-based raid buffs like Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, and Devilment. Not that SAM was unviable in general. It’s all about party and raid buff composition. This only affects groups that chase high parses, so it won’t affect the more midcore or casual raiders; which they also acknowledged. But it’s still worth acknowledging all the same since this issue is already present in other jobs (WAR and it’s anti-synergy with BRD’s Battle Voice).

EDIT: arbitrary daily post limit hit—

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

It’s not feelycrafting to say that jobs that aren’t more in synergy with one another are a less viable alternative to jobs that do synergize. It’s purely fact. The same logic applied to SB BRD when it came to wanting SCH over the other two healers because of their synergy with Chain Strategem. It was less viable for the BRD to have WHM/AST compared to WHM/SCH or AST/SCH because they lost an important Crit buff to them. None of the comps were unviable to a BRD, but a non-SCH one had inherently less synergy than one with a SCH, and resulted in a damage loss.

If you care about bleeding edge parsing and leaderboards, this is important. If you don’t, then it isn’t. But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a thing to note.

[Quyn]

Forte said that SAM is less viable in Crit heavy comps. This is because of the anti-synergy their big hitting abilities now have with crit-based raid buffs like Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, and Devilment. Not that SAM was unviable in general. It’s all about party and raid buff composition. This only affects groups that chase high parses, so it won’t affect the more midcore or casual raiders; which they also acknowledged. But it’s still worth acknowledging all the same since this issue is already present in other jobs (WAR and it’s anti-synergy with BRD’s Battle Voice).

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

[Roxus]

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

No, that's not the worst case scenario. 3% is the average of a whole picture. Or logs. It's 12% when you are accounting for the ceiling. Further, the individual finishers are roughly 15-20% worse than before, which is what people look at more.