6.1 Ninja just doesn't feel good to play.

[Wyssahtyn]

I largely agree with the OP's points. NIN does feel somewhat off to play. I haven't played it seriously since Stormblood, but even then I can't deny there's a feeling of wrongness even if I can't exactly articulate the reason. Personally, I'd call for the reversion of the Hide and Trick Attack/Mug changes, or at least a reevaluation of the latter. Also for Raiju stacks to not get overwritten by weaponskill use, and perhaps for the ability to get moved onto the OGCD. Feels like it should have been one to begin with in my opinion.

[Grimoire-M]

Also generally agree. The only exception I’ll make is for Meisui, and Suiton. Kind of. I don’t think they need changing now, so take this criticism as a thought for 7.0. Regarding Meisui I have very similar feelings about it and Mug. In some sense they are simply bloatware that we don’t need. I feel like Assassinate and DWD could take over their Ninki generation role with very selective changes.

For Suiton it’s more of a ‘If I had to change something core to Ninja for the better, what would it be?’ than an actual issue, though it does apply to Meisui and TCJ. While enabling the use of Trick Attack and Meisui for the even Trick windows is fine, I do think there’s potential to make it more interesting as an action by enabling it to interact with something else instead of Trick, such as boosting the potency of the next few non-Suiton Mudra, Raijus, or Phantom. The buff duration could go and not cause any harm too. The goal there would be to preserve the current flow of the burst window and 6.08 opener, but add to your flexibility and priorities a bit more during downtime.

Those are small effects, but they do impact the rotation significantly enough to warrant consideration and thorough planning. Something that’s short these days.

[aloneatsea]

Also generally agree. The only exception I’ll make is for Meisui, and Suiton. Kind of. I don’t think they need changing now, so take this criticism as a thought for 7.0. Regarding Meisui I have very similar feelings about it and Mug. In some sense they are simply bloatware that we don’t need. I feel like Assassinate and DWD could take over their Ninki generation role with very selective changes.

For Suiton it’s more of a ‘If I had to change something core to Ninja for the better, what would it be?’ than an actual issue, though it does apply to Meisui and TCJ. While enabling the use of Trick Attack and Meisui for the even Trick windows is fine, I do think there’s potential to make it more interesting as an action by enabling it to interact with something else instead of Trick, such as boosting the potency of the next few non-Suiton Mudra, Raijus, or Phantom. The buff duration could go and not cause any harm too. The goal there would be to preserve the current flow of the burst window and 6.08 opener, but add to your flexibility and priorities a bit more during downtime.

Those are small effects, but they do impact the rotation significantly enough to warrant consideration and thorough planning. Something that’s short these days.

I agree that Meisui is somewhat 'boring' in the sense that it's not hugely impactful (and Enhanced Meisui is very forgettable), but I think it's a good solution for a wasted Suiton in single target. Setting up Trick on even minutes with TCJ in UCOB has always felt strange to me. I agree that there's possibly room for further innovation with consuming the Suiton buff.

[Kolsykol]

They could just make TA usable without Suiton and then Meisui could make your next Suiton buffed and reset a Mudra.
Alternatively it could turn into Suiton as a combo skill.

Altho then the Mudra combo would have to be replaced by something.

[aloneatsea]

They could just make TA usable without Suiton and then Meisui could make your next Suiton buffed and reset a Mudra.
Alternatively it could turn into Suiton as a combo skill.

Altho then the Mudra combo would have to be replaced by something.

I'd really hate it if they detached Suiton and Trick Attack, personally. Suiton in preparation for Trick feels good, to me. It's when you add even more conditions that I feel Ninja starts to feel uncompromising and rigid.

[NobleWinter]

I really wanna see Hyoton become useful. Maybe make it a shield that can be applied to self or another party member to finally give Ninja some party utility like they used to have with all their aggro management tools. I'm really not sure why they felt it so important to make every class have a 2 minute raid buff. If anything it seems like a prime way to alienate people as now it will become very obvious when someone doesn't line their copy paste buff up with every one else.

[Xenon_S]

Meisui is pure bloat.

TCJ in 4.x, despite it mess of execution required to perform the skill, was very flexible in what it could achieve.

There was the option to use it to set up your next TA
There was the option to use it in TA for a doton ender, which was worth even on single target due to TCJ increasing the potency of ninjutsu
There was the option to simply do Fuma+Raiton in TA and just cancel the suiton to get back to doing GCD weapon skills, as the raw potency of suiton wasn't worth the extra time spent

On 5.0 launch, a low CD meisui was introduced as an incentive to make the suiton ender in TA more desirable by giving it ninki.
However with 5.1, while the new TCJ was streamlined and meisui moved up to 2mins, the new system essentially dictated that TCJ suiton ender be used in TA, and meisui will be used exclusively with the TCJ suiton for more damage.

And they doubled down on this in 6.0 by giving it the second most boring trait in game (first place goes to enhanced unmend, of course).
An easy and sensible route would just let TCJ give a suiton upgrade (similar to how kassatsu upgrades raiton and katon) that deals more upfront damage, eliminating the need of ninki conversion to another bhava.

IMO, meisui is both button bloat and action bloat, as a result of the devs dictating the 2min playstyle (but probably doesn't play nin in any serious level themselves, as denoted by the extremely awkward ninki generation and TCJ still being unmovable)

[Grimoire-M]

I'd really hate it if they detached Suiton and Trick Attack, personally. Suiton in preparation for Trick feels good, to me. It's when you add even more conditions that I feel Ninja starts to feel uncompromising and rigid.

That’s specifically why I mentioned buffing mudra and Raiju/Phantom with it, as it still fits the same burst window oriented gameplay, which I also enjoy. It actually kind of justifies adding Raijus to account for the problem you’re rightfully worried about. TCJ already has a pretty natural flow and a single Raiton combo backed up by geysers kinda gives off Dissidia Zidane Shift Break vibes to me. And I do kinda like the idea of upgrading Raiton itself to fit alongside the Kassatsu upgrades, but, again, thoughts for 7.0. Not changing how the rotation operates around it is something I want to preserve in the long run.

The thing we agree on is that Suiton should remain a setup move for the TA burst window. But in that frame of reference, I do think that Trick doesn’t need Suiton as much as much as Suiton needs Trick, if that makes any sense.

An easy and sensible route would just let TCJ give a suiton upgrade (similar to how kassatsu upgrades raiton and katon) that deals more upfront damage, eliminating the need of ninki conversion to another bhava.

While I understand the sentiment, the reason I prefer reworking baseline Suiton over upgrading it inside TCJ is slapping a tidal wave inside TCJ doesn’t solve the minor problems with baseline Suiton. It’s the first thing you want to prioritize between TA windows for ranged uptime if you can get away with it. Sometimes you can’t due to drift, downtime, or the Raiju dash. But the main limiting factor is when you plan to use TA itself. Fixing that minor hiccup to make your options easier to parse in the moment seems reasonable to me and doesn’t alter higher level play as much as people might think.

[aloneatsea]

snip

snip

I took some time to carefully consider what the both of you said -- Grimoire, I didn't properly respond to you earlier, and Xenon, I was not present in Stormblood, so I took some time to do a little research into how TCJ used to operate.



Firstly, I'll preface this with: I don't think Suiton as it stands requires any changes. It does precisely two things -- deals damage, and provides the 'Suiton' buff. By the metric I used in my opening post, I would consider this a comfortable amount of responsibility for Suiton to hold. Whether or not there should be other ways beyond Trick (and Meisui) to spend the Suiton buff is another question entirely.

Now, regarding Ten Chi Jin. While I do concede it has evidently been used in many different ways in the past, likely owing to how it used to double the potency of the mudras cast within it, I do take some small issue with the options you've presented, Xenon. None of these options provide anything aside from raw potency, and the deciding factor between which one to use is simply 'which does more damage', which would vary from patch to patch as potencies were adjusted. Currently, Raiton -> Raiju is extremely powerful, and our AOEs quite weak, so it makes sense that we would opt to use TCJ in the order Fuma Shuriken -> Raiton -> Suiton. At least from my perspective, Meisui feels like a way to avoid 'wasting' the Suiton buff, and avoid the problem of being forced cast TCJ outside of buff windows to maximise both its value and the value of our other mudras. I've not cleared UCOB or UWU, but in my opinion setting up Suiton with TCJ feels very odd, and somewhat counterintuitive. It's a powerful cooldown, so ideally I'd like to use it within Trick.

It may well be the case that there were clearly defined situational benefits to using one or another combination that I am unable to see, but I would need to defer to your experience on that matter, as it is incredibly difficult to find information on previous iterations of Ninja.

Another 'problem' with TCJ is that there are a limited number of 'useful' combinations:

Ten -> Chi -> Jin = Fuma -> Raiton -> Suiton
Ten -> Jin -> Chi = Fuma -> Hyoton -> Doton
Chi -> Ten -> Jin = Fuma -> Katon -> Suiton
Chi -> Jin -> Ten = Fuma -> Hyoton -> Huton
Jin -> Ten -> Chi = Fuma -> Katon -> Doton
Jin -> Chi -> Ten = Fuma -> Raiton -> Huton

We can safely eliminate any combinations which contain Hyoton or Huton, as Hyoton is equivalent to Katon in single-target and worse than Raiton. Huton is something that is ideally never dropped, and even if it is, we nowadays have Huraijin to recover it without expending a mudra charge. This leaves us with the following 'useful' combinations:

Ten -> Chi -> Jin = Fuma -> Raiton -> Suiton
Chi -> Ten -> Jin = Fuma -> Katon -> Suiton
Jin -> Ten -> Chi = Fuma -> Katon -> Doton


T -> C -> J is generally considered the 'single target' TCJ pattern, whereas J -> T -> C is generally considered the 'AOE' pattern. C -> T -> J I've only found usage for in TEA, where the two targets will not sit long enough in Doton to gain enough value out of it. Because two of the three 'useful' TCJ combinations result in Suiton, it makes sense to me that Meisui exists as a way to consume an excess Suiton buff. While it may not be particularly inspired, I think the purpose it serves is a reasonable one.

The real culprit here, I believe, is Hyoton. Because Hyoton is worse than Raiton and equivalent to Katon in single-target, it is essentially worthless. I would love, personally, to see Hyoton buff the next mudra by a certain percentage. It would inevitably be used on Hyosho Ranryu in single-target, as that is the most reasonable candidate. In an ideal world, I would love for a Fuma -> Hyoton -> Doton -> Buffed Hyosho to be a slight gain (note: slight) on Hyosho -> Fuma -> Raiton -> Suiton -> Meisui -> Raiju -> Bhava. Balancing it would definitely be a matter of careful potency adjustment, but the idea is that in situations where the boss can be kept in Doton, Ten -> Jin -> Chi is a gain, and in situations where it cannot, Ten -> Chi -> Jin is a gain. This would add a small level of skill expression to players who are able to correctly identify which combination would provide the most damage during buff windows across a fight. It would also give Hyoton a bit of purpose beyond being Hyosho Ranryu.

However, I'm sure my idea is plenty flawed, and it may not even address the core of what the two of you have discussed. Feel free to dissect my concept as much or as little as you please; I am simply tossing an idea out. I'm by no means a game designer, nor someone who fancies themselves one.

While I do love the theoretical flexibility that TCJ provides, I feel that unless the tuning of two combinations is so tight such that there is a situational reason one could be better than the other, there will always be a definitive 'best' combination and way to use TCJ. We're here to deal as much damage as possible, in the end.

[Kolsykol]

I'd really hate it if they detached Suiton and Trick Attack, personally. Suiton in preparation for Trick feels good, to me. It's when you add even more conditions that I feel Ninja starts to feel uncompromising and rigid.

I don't really mind it either but I also don't mind Meisui, I think it feels good to weave and it's free damage.
I just meant if they had to do something with Meisui supposedly since people were talking about it.
I don't consider it bloat I think people throw that word around far too much and easily... I think it does add something to the rotation and is a unique skill.

Button bloat to me is stuff like Shoha 1 and 2 being separate.