6.1 Ninja just doesn't feel good to play.

[aloneatsea]

It's been a few days, now. I've cleared the new extreme several times, done my Savage reclears, and quite frankly played a disgusting amount of PVP (it's super fun!).

With that in mind, I've had a fair bit of time to chew on this current iteration of Ninja. I was going to leave it a few more days before I made this post, but the surprise maintenance left me with a bit of free time, so here I am.

So, my most crucial and opening point:

Mug is a bloated ability.

What I mean by this is that Mug does too much for one ability, and as a result feels bad to play around. Most abilities do precisely one or two things, and no more -- they deal damage, have a single effect, or deal damage and have a single effect. Mug does three things. It deals damage, provides a party buff, and provides the Ninja with some resource.

This bloatedness means that you essentially need to prioritise which effect is more important, and deal with the fact that the other effect will happen at the same time. In Mug's case, the party buff being on time is more important than the gauge Ninja receives, and thus is it optimal to press Mug on cooldown, regardless of whether or not the Ninja wants (or is able!) to receive the +40 Ninki from the ability.

This is and of itself would hypothetically be fine, if not for the fact that, well -- Ninja's Ninki generation at the moment aligns rather poorly with raid buff windows. You tend to cap your Ninki a few GCDs before raid buffs come up, forcing you to spend them outside of buffs. That, and you cannot enter a Mug window at Ninki higher than 60 without automatically losing some gauge due to Mug giving you +40. In most Mug windows, you're now only able to manage two Bhavacakras, whereas beforehand, you would oftentimes be able to land three. While this might only be 54.25 potency, given Bhavacakra's recent nerf, it's still a decent chunk, and frankly it just feels bad not to be able to build up gauge in the same way other jobs can.

The other issue is that you want to press Mug and Trick Attack more or less at the same time, to maximise the value of stacking buffs together. Consideration was evidently given to this fact, as Mug has a 20s cooldown, allowing you to comfortably activate Trick Attack about a GCD later, and fit the entire duration within Mug. This is all well and good, except for the fact that Ninja has ever so slightly more burst than can fit within Trick -- and you don't really want to start bursting until Trick is active. This means you inevitably land a portion of your burst outside the range of both buffs, which again, feels bad to play around.

So, how do you solve this?

My recommendation would be to move the party buff back onto Trick Attack, and keep the buff at a 1-minute cooldown to align with Ninja's natural burst. This would leave Mug as a simple +40 Ninki gainer, simplifying it's usage and once again allowing for the Ninja to use Mug for that Ninki gain at the most optimal time, rather than on hard cooldown.

This does not have to mean a complete revert to how Trick Attack functioned in 6.08 (though I would greatly enjoy it if that were the case). If Square Enix is dead-set on increasing Ninja's personal damage, a compromise I would swallow and prefer over the current iteration is something similar to Dragoon's Dragon Sight -- a smaller % damage buff to the party, and a larger % damage buff to the Ninja.

Make no mistake, I would much prefer Ninja returns to the comfortable 5% vuln up on a single target on a one-minute cooldown.

Make no mistake, the current iteration of Ninja is as strong or even stronger than it was in 6.08.

Make no mistake, however, that the 6.1 iteration of Ninja simply does not feel good to play.

This is not to say that 6.1 has been entirely miserable for the Ninja. I for one really enjoy seeing the new Trick Attack icon on the enemy -- I think it's much more flavourful and enjoyable to see than the generic vuln-up image. In addition, I think the current PVP iteration of Ninja is incredibly fun (a resetable execute!!).

It's clear that a good amount of thought has been put into the changes in 6.1, such as to not completely change the experience for Ninja players. However, I do not believe that the changes to Ninja were made with the feedback of Ninja players in mind, nor do I feel that the voice of Ninja players has been heard. If anything, it seems that opinions of other jobs on Ninja is taken into consideration more heavily than that of Ninja players (see the removal of prepull Doton).

While Ninja has had a rough start this expansion, with it's undertuning and missteps with forced Raijus drastically lowering the number of players, the 6.08 buffs to Ninja saw it rapidly growing in popularity once again, as it was no longer extremely weak, and felt quite good to play. I see no reason to dramatically change the experience from 6.08, and strongly encourage the developers to walk back this decision to move the party buff onto Mug.

[aloneatsea]

As an aside, Yoshi-P requested that Ninja players communicate clearly which abilities/aspects of their job they consider 'core' or 'untouchable', and which are more flexible/less important, so that the job designers can better make adjustments or innovate. In honour of that request, I'll lay out my personal opinions on what is integral to Ninja, and what is less important/where I see room to innovate.

I will be using the 6.08 iteration of Ninja as the baseline for these comments, as 6.08 is what I consider to be the best iteration of 6.0 Ninja thus far.

Core Abilities (Do not change)

Mudras
The seven base mudra combinations Ninja currently has (Fuma Shuriken, Raiton, Katon, Hyoton, Doton, Suiton, Huton) are simply core to the class -- with the exception of Hyoton. I believe it would be folly to to change any aspect of these base mudras aside from potencies.

Huton
Similar to above, Huton is a core element of what makes Ninja, well, Ninja. The skill speed boost means Ninja feels fast, as a good Ninja class should. Maintaining Huton is something that you have always had to do, and always should do.

Trick Attack
The classic one-minute party buff, last of its kind, which has been changed to a personal buff in the most recent patch. I would consider Trick Attack's party buff a core aspect of Ninja on par with the mudra combinations. Ninja has a reputation as the 'support' melee class, and Trick Attack is the only 'support' ability Ninja really has.

Hide
This may seem a strange pick for 'Core', but I think being able to Hide is an important part of the fantasy of being a stealthy Ninja, and it would be sad to lose this ability, even if it is only rarely used. The fact that it resets mudra charges makes it feel great in dungeons, and means Ninja can set-up Huton and still have a full burst in its opener.

Shukuchi
In my opinion, this is one of the best mobility abilities in the game, and Shukuchi is great for fulfilling the Ninja fantasy. Drop a smoke bomb and teleport away.

It Feels Good (Little or no changes needed)

Shade Shift
A strong personal shield with a neat animation that just feels good to use. The cooldown is quite long, however. It would be nice to see the duration slightly reduced, as well as the cooldown, to use it more often.

Kassatsu, Hyosho Ranryu & Goka Mekkyaku
These abilities have great animations and feel awesome to use. The only downside is that there's only two options for enhanced mudras, and Goka Mekkyaku is currently weaker than Hyosho Ranryu on two targets.

Armour Crush
Extending Huton as part of your basic GCD just feels good. The name of the ability is somewhat confusing, but I think a GCD that extends Huton should alway be part of the 123(4) combo for Ninja.

Bhavacakra & Hellfrog Medium
Simple spenders for Ninki that do the job. The animations are cool, and stocking them for burst windows is somewhat satisfying. The only downside is, as with Goka Mekkyaku, that Hellfrog Medium is weaker on two targets than Bhavacakra.

Ten Chi Jin & Meisui
This may be somewhat controversial, but I really like how TCJ operates right now. I think that being unable to move without losing the effect is a nice tradeoff for how strong the ability is. Meisui, too, is a fantastic addition that perfectly synergises with the single-target combo of Ten -> Chi -> Jin to convert the Suiton buff into raw Ninki for more damage. It just feels great to use.

Bunshin & Phantom Kamaitachi
I really like these abilities. The fact that they're on a 90 second cooldown provides a decent amount of variety in-between Trick Attack windows. The shadow on Bunshin's animation is very cool, and Phantom Kamaitachi is great not just for the very cool animation, but also for how flexible it is as a disengage tool if being in melee range is dangerous.

Forked Raiju & Fleeting Raiju
I think that the current iteration of the Raijus is really good. The animations are very cool, and the flexibility of being able to choose between a regular GCD and a gapcloser means you have some time-sensitive flexibility. The coolest thing I've done with Fleeting Raiju is successfully cancelled a cape knockback during Pinax in P4S. It felt so good to pull off. While it would be nice if weaponskills didn't cancel stacks of Raiju Ready, it is not too difficult to work around, and with properly planning is not an issue.

Hollow Nozuchi
I love being able to proc Hollow Nozuchi when I'm AOEing in dungeons -- it just feels great to use, and really satisfying to be rewarded for AOEing with even more damage.

Room for Improvement

Throwing Dagger
Currently, the best way to use this ability is not at all. Ninja already has many disengage tools in Phantom Kaimaitachi and Raiton, and given Throwing Dagger's low potency, it simply feels bad to use. While I don't think it should be removed, as throwing daggers is part of the Ninja fantasy in my opinion, there is room for innovation here. Perhaps an 'Enhanced Throwing Dagger' of some kind, or being able to consume a Raiju stack for increased damage?

Mug
Ignoring the party buff added in 6.1, Mug is a very rogue-like skill, and not a very ninja-like skill. I believe that the +40 Ninki gain is a smooth part of the Ninja's kit, but Mug simply does not satisfy a ninja-like fantasy. I propose that Mug be retained, but at a higher level (30+) that it be upgraded into a different, more ninja-like ability, that still provides +40 Ninki, but has a more interesting animation/name.

Assassinate/Dream within a Dream
While Assassinate has in my opinion the single coolest animation of any Ninja ability, neither of their abilities interact with the rest of Ninja's kit, and merely provide raw damage. I would not be particularly upset if they were removed or changed in favour of adding an ability that more directly interacted with the rest of Ninja's kit.

Aeolian Edge Combo & AOE Combo

I hesitated putting this here, as I think the basic 123 combo is quite boring, but I do really like the animation for Aeolian Edge, and it is my opinion that Ninja is already quite inundated with GCDs it wants to use during burst windows. There is the possibility of adding different combo finishers for additional effects, however, similar to what was done with Kiss of the Wasp/Viper and Shadowfang in the past... I'm not sure what can be done for the AOE combo, as it's only two abilities (much like most other jobs), but I don't hold any particular attachment to them, either. Death Blossom is a very cool animation, however.

Ninki

I believe there's room for more abilities that make use of the Ninki gauge. Currently, in single-target, you will only ever spend Ninki on two abilities -- Bunshin, when it's off-cooldown, and Bhavacakra when it's not -- and in AOE, the same, but replacing Bhavacakra with Hellfrog Medium. I believe there's potential for an additional ability (or more!) making use of Ninki. For example, consuming 50 Ninki to boost the power of the next mudra, similar to how Kaiten used to work for Samurai.

Enhanced Mudras
I believe there's room for more enhanced Mudras under Kassatsu. Currently, there's only two -- enhanced Hyoton (Hyosho Ranryu), and enhanced Katon (Goka Mekkyaku). It would be very cool to see an enhanced Huton, or an enhanced Suiton, or the like.

Hyoton
The unfortunate forgotten child of the base mudras, Hyoton is almost never used. The only time I can think of when I have preferred to use it over Raiton would be in Eureka, when I was running for my life. Unfortunately, it did not save me. It would be great to see Hyoton changed somehow to have more impact.

[RylaBee]

Mug is a bloated ability.

The funny thing is, in Stormblood Mug was rightfully considered button-bloat ability, a remnant from the past,
that should have been removed from game just like some obscure buttons on WHM etc..

Instead, in ShB SE slapped on it gain of Ninki gauge, to give the ability reason to exist.

And now they used it for dumbification (sorry streamlining) of raid buffs.

With BRD now able to buff without song present and SMN triggering the buff themselves, not via pet,
the last remnants of the Old Republic have been.. sorry wrong movie.

Welcome to the classes A-Z, who all do the same raidbuff on 2m cooldown, just with the buff having different icon and name.

[Manofpassion]

Fully agree with everything said. I would personally put tcj into the core abilities section though. Some people want to be able to move during it, but I often enjoy planning out my movement for tcj. It's only once every 2 minutes, so I don't think it's too bad.

I would like to see hyoton not be a meme move, although I struggle to think of how the devs can make it useful. Damage is king, so I think katon and raiton will always be the go to. Oh well. Please bring back old trick so we can at least have one semi unique raid buff. Every other raid buff has a 2 minute cooldown, if people are really attached to that, they can just play any other class.

[Kolsykol]

Mug is just stupid as a dmg buff, it has nothing unique about it now mechanically.
60s used to be its niche now it's just a less interesting Brotherhood and Arcane Circle.
MNK gets Chakra and RPR gets a big juicy skill that gives 50 Shroud....
Wtf does NIN get? A bit of Ninki?
So boring...

NIN has just officially lost its identity really and sure DPS tax being minimized etc.
What about the gear tax?
NIN being the only one using Scouting I could sorta accept before because it was THE utility DPS ( especially in earlier expansions ).

Now MNK and RPR have better utility.
The DMG buff is almost the same but theirs is more interesting, and they have a healing buff and a shield + heal...
NIN has just lost everything that made it unique.

[Rhesha_filia]

A core ability I want to add is Mug. Not core as in core to the gameplay, but Mug (aka Steal) is the iconic ability of Rogue, the long discarded predecessor of Ninja. It is as iconic as the Dragoon's Jump, and I would like to use it more often in a flavor that fits stealing something from the enemy and gaining from it... which requires sweeping change, I know. Maybe shorten the cooldown significantly and eliminate the Ninki generation? If the increased item drop is a problem, they might as well axe that too.

What I had in mind lines up with what OP said about Throwing Dagger. With the advent of transforming actions, a cool idea I think is using Mug to transform Throwing Dagger into 'Throw Weapon', another iconic Ninja skill (that has since been deleted in PVP). Increased potency is a good start. It'll give Ninjas something to do other than stocking resources outside of buff windows. Let the cooldown of Mug be short enough that it should be used roughly on cooldown, similar to other low cooldown OGCD skills.

While fun, to address button bloat I would rather Ten Chi Jin automatically grant the Meisui buff, which functions the same. Weaving windows are stacked enough as it is.

In the 'Room for Improvement' category is Enhanced Shukuchi. It adds little, if at all, at level 90 since Raiton already grants access to Forked Raiju, a gap closer on the GCD, which I feel they should still keep because of its uniqueness. Seconding Hyoton because it has always been the bullied sibling of the other Mudras. It is an artifact from ARR when Bind is actually useful sometimes. If they want it to stay as a disengage tool, at least make the Bind effect AoE, like Repose.

These are just some suggestions milling around in my head. New Ninja made me sad enough to be vocal about it. If there is even a small chance devs will read this, then I consider it worthwhile to speak up for once.

[aloneatsea]

In light of reading certain responses, I realised I mistakenly left out Mug from my evaluation of the different Ninja abilities (quite the misstep, given the topic!). I've thus added it alongside my thoughts to the second half of my post.

[Kolsykol]

Mug did use to be able to steal stuff in ARR I can't remember exactly how it worked tho, I think it just gave a higher chance for loot.

Mug just makes zero sense to me as a DPS buff.
I just really think it's unfair at this point that we have worse and less fun and interesting utility than MNK and RPR ( MNK topping DPS too ) and on top of that we still pay the gear tax where we don't share it with anyone and it's harder if you main NIN to play another Job too.
NIN just has no identity at this point other than having more punishing to fail gameplay ( not hard, but missed Mudra or Ten Chi Jin is worse. Ten Chi Jin also requiring you to stand still can cause issues ) and not sharing gear with any other Job.
It's just worse in all respects basically the only thing it has is 5 extra sec of 5% dmg which is like two GCD's.
Which I think the Chakras and Plentiful Harvest either zeroes out or even outweighs...

It might sound strange but homogenizing Mug even further by at least making it more interesting like unlocking a skill like Plentiful Harvest or making every attack give extra Ninki would at least make it more interesting.
It's just bs that we have no utility outside of it too, I love NIN but the more I think about it the more depressed I feel about it especially compared to what NIN used to be in other expansions.
NIN is just a worse version of MNK and RPR, not talking about numbers but in terms of gameplay.

[RyuuZero]

It's really interesting what changes they brought to NIN and SAM, removing Kaiten and wrecking the Job into Flavorlessness and turning Mug into Trick Attack is like Wow!.. these changes to NIN and SAM make me feel like Chris Rock at the Oscars 2022.. like couldn't they give those personal buffs to Mug and keep Trick Attack unchanged? I mean.. okay.. I played the new 24men raid and me dying alot I had kind of a chill experience every 2 minutes: Mug, Huraijin, dead, ress, repeat.
Now true that's not how NIN is supposed to be played but .. these changes to NIN and SAM are just bad! (aside of the new Tenka Goken, that's pretty Good imo)

[Manofpassion]

Yeah, I think making mug the personal damage buff instead of trick is an easy solution to everyone's concerns. It would not make too much sense thematically, but I think the devs don't care about that at all at this point.