button bloat

[IdowhatIwant]

Machinist is in dire need of some simplification. It's exhausting to play at full capacity. Look at this full rotation that takes 6minutes to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CNoAL2do6o
I played MCH in Aglaia and was physically exhausted afterwards.

No, never say this again or we will get gutted again. And the rotation does not take 6 minutes there isn't even a 6 minute rotation in the game, even summoner in 5.0 had a shorter rotation. Stop making things up this is why the game keeps getting bad yall keep giving out fake bs. Keep my jobs name outcha mouth.

[IdowhatIwant]

Have you played it in any content above roulettes? The problem is there is no reward for the effort you put in to play MCH. It has the most busy mechanics and lowest personal dps...and yet you can braindead the mages for more DPS.
The heavensward classes are in need of some help for real. DRK is just...okay. It's not particularly bad or good. Look at how astro was gutted like 3 times.

Have you? Why am I even asking? You said it takes 6 minutes to do the rotation of course you don't, you don't even play MCH. This is why bad changes happen, people that do not know what they are talking about make poor suggestions. MCH is very brain dead it's just high APM because you are double weaving almost every gcd. Is it rewarding? Not really just some dopamine pumps from those direct crit drills. Does it need to be simplified? Outside of the crappy hyper charge / heat blast not really, it is brain dead enough already. DRK is slightly more brain dead than warrior.

Your first post, stated that BLM was extremely simple when as it is currently, it is probably the most complex job we currently have. Most jobs dream of being that engaging and complex. Go back to playing crafters and getting those skills reduced. Leave the real jobs for the adults to discuss.

[IdowhatIwant]

I'm sorry ur so hurt that i am critiquing MCH.

By all means criticize the class, it's in pretty terrible state. But at least use accurate information.

[IdowhatIwant]

That video is straight from the balance discord, why don't u go yell at their mods?
it's a opener/rotation guide alotting for two attack windows and pots

You pulled a video of someone attacking a dummy for 6 minutes and claimed it was a 6 minute rotation. The balance are just a bunch of number crunchers, over half of the rotations they make are unrealistic in actual game play. People clear savage fights in 6 minutes... use some form of logic rather than spouting out what ever other people post that you misread.

And to you childishly deleting all your posts with :Reason: dude is mad im critiquing machinist and thus says go back to crafting LEL. All I suggest is know what your are talking about if you are going to make criticism or suggestions.

[Dzian]

Your first post, stated that BLM was extremely simple when as it is currently, it is probably the most complex job we currently have. Most jobs dream of being that engaging and complex. Go back to playing crafters and getting those skills reduced. Leave the real jobs for the adults to discuss.

Just highlighting this. the job with quite probably the least buttons and one of the lowest actions per minute is the most complex and engaging job to play...

just proves more buttons doesn't mean better job.

the problem with many jobs is how many of the buttons are essentially just filler fluff. something a lot of the jobs could learn from honestly.

[caffe_macchiato]

i justed wanted to tell SquareEnix that im happy your guys are working on this. my ideal class has 4-6 buttons for single target rotation, 1-2 for aoe, 1-2 cooldowns and the rest for other stuff like mount, role actions etc.

This is the only video game I’ve seen besides WoW that requires 20+ buttons just to kill something. It’s time for MMOs to break from WoW’s clutches. It’s 20 years old.

Many people love the 1-2-3 system because it provides a false sense of activity. You’re still pressing a static rotation, but your finger is in a slightly different spot. If people want that kind of combat, that’s fine, but many other games do it better.

The alternative is to make an engaging context-dependent combat system. Mechanics are more complicated because your rotation depends on the current state or location of the boss. That is far more complicated to implement, but perhaps we can reach a compromise. PvP has a context-dependent system and it works well. Perhaps PvE mechanics can become faster and require more mobility in exchange for auto-combo abilities?

Change is inconvenient and many people will love to stick to WoW’s system for the next 20 years (let’s make it last for 40). But if you’ve bought any game in 2022, you’d realize that something is missing and 1-2-3 just isn’t cutting it anymore.

[Averax]

snip

I...don't think you've ever played wow if you think it takes over 20 buttons to kill something there. They do more with less because of the 1.5 sec gcd, they have virtually no OGCD attacks. Over there the primary style is resource management, pooling and spending efficiently.

1-2-3 is a product of this game, wow has never done that.

Aside from a few exceptions, you don't have a whole lot of actual rotational buttons over there, a lot of your other buttons end up being utility. Stuns, roots, snares, buffs, non-damage debuffs, interrupts, movement abilities, and the like. I think some of the more rotationally bloated specs i've played have been unholy DK and affliction warlock... oh and holy priest. Holy priest has sooo many buttons.

[IdowhatIwant]

Just highlighting this. the job with quite probably the least buttons and one of the lowest actions per minute is the most complex and engaging job to play...

just proves more buttons doesn't mean better job.

the problem with many jobs is how many of the buttons are essentially just filler fluff. something a lot of the jobs could learn from honestly.

Part of that is because it is a caster. I would not expect a caster to be high APM. But no APM does not mean complexity you can have high APM and low APM jobs with the same level of complexity. High vs low APM are more or less play styles. Ninja and monk are two classes that would come to mind when I think of things that would be a high APM class. Black mage and summoner are two things that come to mind when i think of low APM classes. APM has nothing to do with button bloat, or complexity, you can have high APM and just hit 3 buttons at a higher frequency than others. So this is a very moot point.

Best example is when you compare BLM and SMN, similar low APMs one is clearly more complex and engaging than the other. Ninja and MCH almost the same APMs same situation. Also Black mage does have about the same number of buttons as a good portion of the classes.

The actual reason that BLM has less button bloat is not even because of the number of actions. BLM learns 31 actions where as most classes learn about 28-29. Blm spells are often upgrading to other skills, rather than being an additional button. Many of these actions are also longer CD skills or not used but in very niche situations. If Yoshi P were able to make skills upgrades in an intelligent and logical way, or have skills chain into skills in an intelligent and logical way that would solve most of you button bloat problems if not all. Problem is based off this patch is they are unable to do this in an intelligent or logical way, likely because they don't have a clear understanding of there own jobs they created.

Good examples of how to address button bloat would be Paladins new combo in 6.0 chaining off of confiteor, or Fel Cleave turning into Nascent Chaos and leaving Primal Rend as it own button.

Bad examples of of address button bloat would be removal of kaiten, or turning wanders minuet into pitch perfect.

[Zorvan]

So changing the Kenki gauge to a "PRESS THE GLOWY BUTTON FOR DAMAGE!" is better than managing your Kenki to get the damage buff and getting a SWEET animation to boot? Please stop speaking for Samurais like you know how to play one. Managing Kenki is pointless now, you just slap the glowy button until you have no more kenki, not fun really.

Most people animation cancel, so your "SWEET animation" means absolutely nothing to them.

[Zorvan]

This is the only video game I’ve seen besides WoW that requires 20+ buttons just to kill something. It’s time for MMOs to break from WoW’s clutches. It’s 20 years old.

Many people love the 1-2-3 system because it provides a false sense of activity. You’re still pressing a static rotation, but your finger is in a slightly different spot. If people want that kind of combat, that’s fine, but many other games do it better.

The alternative is to make an engaging context-dependent combat system. Mechanics are more complicated because your rotation depends on the current state or location of the boss. That is far more complicated to implement, but perhaps we can reach a compromise. PvP has a context-dependent system and it works well. Perhaps PvE mechanics can become faster and require more mobility in exchange for auto-combo abilities?

Change is inconvenient and many people will love to stick to WoW’s system for the next 20 years (let’s make it last for 40). But if you’ve bought any game in 2022, you’d realize that something is missing and 1-2-3 just isn’t cutting it anymore.

Everquest and Everquest II would melt your brain then.