ToS and the health of the community

[NeoDivinity]

Hi ,

Often I see posts on reddit and in the forums about discussions in chat dungeons when someone recommend stuff or point mistakes and these are taken as toxic behavior regardless if it was an advice or a demand.

With the passing years the ToS got more and more strict about how to approach other players with advices and recomendations. Nowdays I feel like most players avoid using the party chat in Duty Finder most of the times because they don't want to engage on potential arguments even if it's about simple things like telling the Tank to rotate mitigations better to prevent damage or the DPSs to AoE on pack of mobs.

I understand the goal of making the gaming space a safe space for non experienced gamers, but should it be enforced like it is?

Even in prog groups we don't often see ppl using macros for exemple to remind ppl of mechanics like we used to in ARR and HW, since they're afraid of spam reports or don't bother at all engaging with the party, most of the time expecting you to follow a strict video guide and if failing to do so to get replaced with no warning at all.

These are not problems the I particulary have since I do play with friends most of the time but I got others to try the game and they pointed to me a few times why no one talk in area chat or even dungeons besides in town, despite having a lot of ppl questing in those starting zones. They either get into a FC I'd recommended or get used to never talk at all. Something that when i was starting back in the late ARR patches it wasnt like this, I remember talking a lot in dungeons and pugs even making friends in those.

How do you guys feel about it? Specially now that players can enjoy the MSQ almost at it's entirety solo, having the ToS so strict still necessary? is it healthy for the community in the long run?

Sorry for the long Topic, and for the scuffed english

TL: DR Now with the game allowing players to play the almost the whole MSQ content solo, the TOS being so strict is beneficial or detrimental for the experience between players? Let me know your thoughts.

[Broken_Wind]

no one talk in area chat or even dungeons besides in town, despite having a lot of ppl questing in those starting zones. They either get into a FC I'd recommended or get used to never talk at all. Something that when i was starting back in the late ARR patches it wasnt like this, I remember talking a lot in dungeons and pugs even making friends in those.

No one talks because everyone is in a hurry, or would rather talk in their private circle.

The ToS is fine. Just don't be an ass. If someone responds poorly to advice just shrug your shoulders and let it be.

[Doozer]

Anyone who says they're afraid to talk is either paranoid or a dick. I've been playing since the start of ARR and although I know I've been reported at least once, I've never been punished for anything I've said. If you just approach people like they're people and not inconveniences to you, you won't get in trouble. If you absolutely must demand someone does something, maybe say "please" first. If people think you're being toxic every time you talk, it's probably because you are. There isn't a mindset throughout the game where simply speaking is assumed to be toxic.

Always assume someone with an outside perspective might see what you're doing or saying. They don't just crush you with the ban hammer as soon as you say "hey guys let's do this strat". Someone has to report it and then a GM will look at it. Will the GM think you're being an ass? Then don't say it.

People weren't any more talkative before any changes to the ToS, and most of the changes were just to clarify things. People just need something to point at when they think their rights are being taken away.

[Bearded]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in offering to give advice to someone whilst in duty. If the person says that they do not want that advice then that's fine - it's their right.

People can have discussions and opposing points of view and again that's perfectly fine. It all comes down to how things are phrased.

Always offer to give advice - never give the advice without the person accepting that they wish to hear it.

[Evergrey]

No one talks because everyone is in a hurry, or would rather talk in their private circle.

The ToS is fine. Just don't be an ass. If someone responds poorly to advice just shrug your shoulders and let it be.

Back in ARR when you couldn't wall-to-wall pull and had to use sleep on mobs to not wipe (1 pack of mobs could wipe the group if not careful) people used to talk a lot.
It felt like the good old days when the social aspect of an MMO was still there.
I had many good dungeon runs with people because we all talked, planned and worked as a team.
Today it's the WoW mentality. Get in, do it as fast as possible, get out.
Sure, I am part of that as well so I'm no saint in this regard.
But still, I always have a better dungeon experience when people talk.

The ToS getting more and more stingy imo does hurt the MMO experience.
Ofc there are things people shouldn't say or do, like in every day life.
But that people can't even give suggestions without the risk of perhaps getting punished for it, it's just wrong.
I always say to friends when I talk about FFXIV that it has a really friendly community.
But, I also say that I have never seen a more sensitive/thin skinned community either in an MMO.
Ofc not everyone's like that. It's just my experience.

[Vryn]

Anyone who says they're afraid to talk is paranoid or a dick. I've been playing since the start of ARR, and although I know I've been reported at least once, I've never been punished for anything I've said. If you approach people like they're people and do not inconvenience you, you won't get in trouble. If you must demand someone do something, maybe say "please" first. If people think you're being toxic every time you talk, it's probably because you are. Throughout the game, there isn't a mindset where simply speaking is assumed to be toxic.

Always assume someone with an outside perspective might see what you're doing or saying. They don't just crush you with the ban hammer as soon as you say, "Hey guys, let's do this strat". Someone has to report it, and then a GM will look at it. Will the GM think you're being an ass? Then don't say it.

People weren't any more talkative before any changes to the ToS, and most of the changes were to clarify things. People need something to point at when they think their rights are being taken away.

Yes, let's not address people's concerns over a private organisation potentially banning you on the perceived offences of a stranger and instead call them names because you like the fact that Square steps on people and that you don't have to deal with other people in an MMO. Negative social interaction is a consequence of being social, and so is being offensive. You cannot have meaningful dialogue without the risk of offence. As long as the ToS is based around perceived offence, it will have a stifling effect no matter if people are innately nice or not, especially across a game that ranges across a dozen cultures in Europe alone with their own takes on what being nice and offensive are.

16 different personality types. Some are more controversial than others, such as someone just being blunt. That doesn't mean they're toxic. That means you don't like the way they speak and therefore are offended by it. The offence usually has more to do with the perceived standards of the individual taking offence than the person speaking to them unless they are throwing epithets. Also, most toxic players are random people having a bad day, so let's not use extremes to justify virtual hate crime law and the social credit system.

Also, I've been here since 2.0 Beta. They were far more talkative and willing to speak in a dungeon and actually speak their mind in public, just because you may not like what they have to say or find it controversial does not give you the right to ban their speech or use the GM's to enforce your individual sense of right and wrong. Just walk away or block them you where given the in game tools for a reason.

[Voidedge_Ragna]

There's really no need to talk to someone, with how most dungeons go you do them for roulette or exp, which means your in it to win it, the reward remains the same no matter if you take 10min or 20min, the efficiency drops however exp/h for sample or tomes and other loots.

If you do a levelling dungeon and considering how their gutted now, you will likely breeze through the entire thing in 12 minutes if your tank knows how to pull and you have some aoes. Now, there are a few 20-30 sec windows in which you can chat, which is sprinting from one pack to next wall. Which happens 6 times per dungeon typically. There's no real interactions you can have with players you never met before and never will meet again in that short of a time.

If i want to do social stuff, i ask if my fc wants to join for roulettes and vc on discord. If you chat during combat that's time your not spending hitting the mob.

The real problem of being able to solo the entire Story AND being able to put all solo instances on very easy will eventually show. You are growing a player sub culture that has no idea what their doing because how could they, they will hit no reality check beside the occ. "difficult" dungeon boss. As long as this type of player is in it for the story, all is well and there's no harm on any side.

However, once these players decide "hey I wanna do ex trials, Savage, 24man raids ... how bad could it be" they will hit a wall so hard they fall into shock.

Even in prog groups we don't often see ppl using macros for example to remind ppl of mechanics like we used to in ARR and HW, since they're afraid of spam reports or don't bother at all engaging with the party, most of the time expecting you to follow a strict video guide and if failing to do so to get replaced with no warning at all.

In EU you always have someone roll a macro for Ex and Savage, this might be a NA thing I did hear about that but I always found it hard to believe as their simple ways to show the expected strat the party leader is using.

[Ath192]

Mmmmm I don’t think it’s the TOS fault. Quite frankly people have grown less nice with time and I’m not sure what social factor has lead to this. Yeah toxicity has been rampart in online gaming for a long time but I do feel it has gotten worse. I don’t recall any FFXI experiences being as rage filled and people being as insecure as in XIV.

If I had to take a really long shot guess the quality of life of people has improved and convenience all around in their life has made them more impatient, volatile and entitled?

Now a days you have two day shipping and on demand everything so I guess people have developed shorter fuses. Just try to make them wait 5 seconds and watch expletives fly out the window.

I just don’t think we are society with a lot of empathy and conscience anymore. Even the duty finder is a convenience mechanism. Imagine having to be nice to attract people to your PF or yell in a city so you can run content together? LOL who has the time for that. Give me instant queues.

So yeah, the pace of content and convenience has increased rapidly, but I think the quality of social interactions has tanked as a result. Because you don’t need to wait for anything.

People are very hypocritical. When they are new or need something watch them be all nice with puppy eyes. But when they are experienced and have become good, I’d say a good 60% of them turn into ragers and bullies because screw putting up with others. But heck; I’m just speculating and nothing else. I don’t think it’s rose colored glasses though. People are more isolated and insecure now a days even though they have communication tools to connect and interact we could only dream a decade and a half ago.

[Vercinotrix]

I honestly wish single player rpgs would just get expansions to the same game repeatedly instead of a one and done entry to a franchise so I could stop playing MMOs. I haven't had my party chats enabled in years at this point. ToS doesn't stop me from talking or interacting with others, I just choose not to.

[Demetri_Delethorn]

I've spoken to plenty of people outside the game who have told me that they refuse to use the in-game chat for this very reason. It's simply not worth the risk. There is definitely no shortage of people who keep quiet out of concern and worry.