Bring Back Kaiten

[Damokl]

I use this setup for most of my DPS, but for tanks and healers I don't, since it becomes more complicated, because there is more abilities that are neither ST or AoE exclusive.

Healers have ST damage/AoE damage (granted, these 2 categories are just 3 buttons, but still) and then bunch of AoE and bunch of ST heals, so you have 4 main categories and bunch of skills that don't fit any of them on top of that. Maybe you could have DPS skills on both layouts, where AoE layout will have only AoE heals and so on. But then you would need to swap layouts mid fight, which is not the way I use them.

Tanks on the other hand, have bunch of mitigation and other utilities which you need to have available at all times. I've looked at my PLD, and even though I could make these layouts, I would still need extra hotbar for all the mitigations. So it really feels like it's mainly DPS that benefit from this.

While this is certainly good idea, it has some limitation (but possible upsides definitely outweight them). For example, MNK has Meditation which turns into forbidden chakra (ST oGCD) when you have enough stacks, but Enlightment, which is AoE counterpart, doesn't have the meditation part.

Yeah i wanted to mention about exceptions but seems that i forgot, i suppose utility abilities and spells should remain as they are. But for healers this scheme for sure would be quite harder to do

[CelestiCer]

I've actually started using this AoE/ST stance few weeks ago and it is really good for some jobs.

Your post reminds me of the " Samurai Stance " idea I brought up to go to the far extreme to save up to 6 buttons, theoretically speaking though. Post was " Here " <- I doubt even if Square compresses skill-kits in this manner? that they would provide more nuances and depth to each Job as they have been making Job dumber.

I just want Kaiten back... I'm not even asking for a new expansion/buff/beast-tribe/haircut/glamour/new-race/Ultimates/Extra-Raids/better story, You have people on the General Forums asking for a Fat-slider and for characters to be able to get pregnant with probably like a " give-birth-emote ". Meanwhile me right... asking for the bare minimum of something that already existed to return... just Kaiten, I swear to god I'm literally asking for just 1 button how is that to much to ask?

it apparently is to much to ask yes... it just is...

[Damokl]

Bruv if people across the forum come to a similar thing without even knowing someone already was talking about that exact thing or even more improved of what they thought (like me seeing yours) how do SE havent come to this idea :skull_emoji:

Besides that, ive read that thread to the end and came to a conclusion that Ryuu by this point really being obsessed with 2 things:
a) dragoons' Geirskogul
b) having entire rotations with ST/AoE of basically the same exact skills on separate buttons instead of accessing them from a single button with a single button that changes all of your ST rotation skills to their AoE counterpart.

Like man at this point doesnt even get the idea of the stance changer and skills being merged to one button but remain separate. He doesnt get the idea or should we say he disgusted of the idea of "ST rotation set turns into exact same but AoE rotation set by a single oGCD" and glorifies having all of those skills as an eyesore and yet again a button bloat. While in reality 4/5 cases you do not even need 1/3(aoe) of those weaponskills and in that 1/5 case you do not use 2/3(st) unless you minmaxing-speedrunning the instance which is not the case for casual gameplay and especially my currently 65lv sam ass (this statement also applies to my Hagakure usage or should i say 'not usage').

[Damokl]

Instead what is he saying can easily be applied to dancers who have the required fluidity for weaving ST and AoE skills back and forth alltogether and separately (and which in fact i enjoy a lot) thus they have that mentioned previously variability to make decisions for the second half of basic rotations (ST3/AoE3+ST4/AoE4 and fan and the order depends on that 50% chance of getting required buffs GCD1 for GCD3 and GCD2 for GCD4) and at this moment im confusing even myself so endure or just skip this part. We samurais dont have that option, the only connection between our ST and AoE rotation is iaijutsu
I also found this 2017 guide which is still absolutely relatable except kaiten (and hagakure for me specifically)


Long story short every job so far ive seen by now has in total 26 job-specific assignable buttons be they skills, spells or abilities so not so many jobs would benefit from such stance concept and the least beneficial would be healers i suppose? And now that i give it a second thought the only idea of adding a button that lowers that number by 1/3 for 1-3-5 jobs out of all of them is unbalanced on its own. But dreamers do be dreaming am i right? Moreover its not like it is actually unbalancing potency-wise, just less buttons for some of them and the only real unbalance it would make is accessibility and its not that i blame people who cant do this and that due to buttons layout or any other accessibility reasons, me myself is not a pianist. I unlocked sage, assigned buttons, looked at those again and said hell nah, i leveled thm and unlocked blackmage, i looked at the job traits window and said hell nah not even trying to assign them, not my jobs, imma stickin to sam and dnc, slashin n spinnin

Also i have not a single damn idea about what his "That Stance thing sounds like Sage to me tbh" in that thread is even supposed to mean and if he was talking about [Eukrasia] then its completely different and unrelated thing and moreover its literally just a buff (IS THIS A KAITEN REFERENCE?!)

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

Nah man, we need to consolidate buttons by removing Kaiten, there's no other way...

What? Combine Iaijutsu and Tsubame-Gaeshi? Are you mad? Combine Ikishoten and Ogi-Namakiri? That'll never work, anyway, we're keeping Senei, which is completely redundant and only exists to pretend Samarai gets a new skill at 72 instead of just upping Guren's potency with more drop-off or separating their cooldowns.

[Damokl]

Also another workaround would be if they added prerequisite cone attack with like 50-100 potency to all those aoe/st skills which then would determine if skill gets more potency and deal bigger big numbers to one enemy or it would do its average big numbers but with drop-off for more enemies. (JuSt LiKe NaMiKiRi In ThE pVp MoDe tho it has no prerequisites, just hit n go, one enemy? huge number, many enemies? big number)

[CelestiCer]

The biggest offender to me is that it's supposed to be replaced with Something. That's why they removed Kaiten, or should be the reason since it didn't solve the non-existing Button Bloat issue. Where is this improved gameplay everyone seems to not mention? all these " it was just button bloat " posters? " it's a button you press every time " one-liners, like where is this improved gameplay then? Cause I don't see it. I see a whole lot of Shinten Spamming and not much of anything else.

[Damokl]

The biggest offender to me is that it's supposed to be replaced with Something. That's why they removed Kaiten, or should be the reason since it didn't solve the non-existing Button Bloat issue. Where is this improved gameplay everyone seems to not mention? all these " it was just button bloat " posters? " it's a button you press every time " one-liners, like where is this improved gameplay then? Cause I don't see it. I see a whole lot of Shinten Spamming and not much of anything else.

— non-existing button bloat nor action bloat as many stated and may state again. And if something then players got even more action bloat and moreover we will still get more buttons and actions as we get more expansions and at some point there would be no choice except to trivialize existing skill/spell/ability setup for hotbars by putting different skills on the same buttons and trigger them under certain conditions. Players still can do in-game macros to put skills on skills like Ryuu did with ikishoten but imo its only the matter of time until it gets implemented officially

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Kaiten had one big issue. You had to use it 100% of the time on your Iaijutsu or the potency would be a waste.

The animation of Kaiten was really appreciated by the community, and the effect of x1.5 Potency on the next attack was also extremely good.

On the last iteration of the Samourai, you had a huge difference between Minimum damage of a Midare (No kaiten, no crit, no DH) and Maximum damage (Kaiten, CRIT DH). (Of course this is all an example, nobody should use Midare Setsugekka without Kaiten first).

But, even if people tend to love that style of Gameplay, I think a Major issue did rise up to the dev team. Kaiten itself and the rigidity it brings to the class (Not doing damage if you don't use it correctly).

Why ?

Cause Kaiten is actually no different from Dark Arts in the principle (Press a button to upgrade next attack). The dev's team seems to have reached a wall on the evolution of the Samourai for the future patch and I guess that Kaiten was in the way of this evolution. Getting rid of Kaiten may allow them to modify what Samurai will experiment later on OR modify how you use your Kenki gauge.

If you think about it for just a second... Don't you think that managing the Kenki with various ability (Not only Shinten/Kaiten) can add a great depth to the class ?

I think that now that Kaiten is gone, they have more flexibility for the future.

But, should have they retired it like how they did ? No. Absolutely not. I agree with the community that it was a bad idea... If they had removed it in 7.0, along some rework, I don't think people would complain like that.

[CelestiCer]

Kaiten had one big issue. You had to use it 100% of the time on your Iaijutsu or the potency would be a waste.

That still doesn't make it a " Job Design issue " it makes it a " Skill issue " though... and we use it on Ogi Namikiri as well which doesn't make us use Kaiten on Iaijutsu 100% of the time... (where did all these non-Samurai players come from talking about something they barely used...)

I can apply your logic to any Job/Skill/Combo/Slidecast/Raidbuffs being miss-used or executed suboptimally, Kaiten is not unique in this sense... Making this as flawed of an argument as your Rigidity point, since this also doesn't stop any other Job from functioning either with rigidity or any limits put on them. Kaiten just meant that you had to weave it properly with Kenki management i.e players just suffer from " Skill-Issues " which also is not limited to SAM since SAM is not deemed as the hardest job ever. Even if you want to argue latency issues, MCH ranks higher on the list with this problem before SAMs Kaiten. It's removal should not have happened the way it did, that's about as much as I agree on with your post.

Miss execution of Kaiten is the literal point... where the game presents many ways for me to mess it up? But I choose to do it right and as perfectly as I can for a long period of time, resulting in Big Numbers, Big Crits, making it feel Satisfying. Compared to Shinten spamming? No matter how perfectly I exectute this into Raidbuffs? it feels weightless.